Home-grown Taliban?

Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by Demosthenes, Oct 29, 2003.

  1. monop_poly

    monop_poly Member

    May 17, 2002
    Chicago
    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Home-grown Taliban?

    I thought this thread wasn't about Christians or abortion. You were just curious about domestic terrorism, remember? Stick to the script.
     
  2. monop_poly

    monop_poly Member

    May 17, 2002
    Chicago
    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Home-grown Taliban?

    I guess these must be your page 2 questions:

    1. Killed Taliban because they governed a country that housed terrorists.
    2. I'm smart enough to know the practical difference between an organized relio-political movement with real ideological power and a few criminals with a warped view of Christianity.

    Here's a question for you: is there really an organized group of "abortion bombers" with a "support network?" If so, why don't we see these bombing with roughly the same frequency Hamas blows up a bus or cafe in Jerusalem?
     
  3. Dan Loney

    Dan Loney BigSoccer Supporter

    Mar 10, 2000
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    Disagree. Lemme tell you why.

    In fact, just try to stop me.

    Most murders are committed by someone the victim knew. Accepting that this is a Bad Thing, a person who snaps and kills their spouse for adultery (for example) is not as great a threat to the general public as someone who shoots a clerk in a robbery.

    Someone who shoots a clerk in a robbery, though, is still less a threat to society than, say, a serial killer. There's something about standing over to a cash register that makes one a target. But a serial killer is more frightening, because of the lack of any apparent motive.

    I would say that a murder based on grounds of bigotry, like that of James Byrd or Matthew Shepard, is in fact worse still. The motive is not only against the victim, but for anyone else of that victim's race or orientation. Like the serial killer, the victim could literally be anyone, but in a hate crime it's more likely that the killer has outside help, sometimes (like the KKK) significant outside help. About the only worse crime I can think of, as far as inflicting terror and anguish, is someone simply walking into a crowded place and opening fire like a madman.

    I probably should have picked assault or arson, since the lines between an ordinary crime and a hate crime are even clearer. Few assaults are absolutely random, but nearly every hate-motivated assault is. There's a massive difference in motive between arson for insurance purposes, and arson to terrorize.

    A hate crime is not the same as an ordinary crime, just like murder is different from manslaughter.
     
  4. Dan Loney

    Dan Loney BigSoccer Supporter

    Mar 10, 2000
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    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Home-grown Taliban?

    You think Tim McVeigh acted alone? Because I know for a fact Eric Rudolph didn't. I vividly remember that picture of the "Pray for Eric Rudolph" sign at the Peach Pie Cafe in North Carolina.
     
  5. Matrim55

    Matrim55 Member+

    Aug 14, 2000
    Berkeley
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    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Home-grown Taliban?

    But not smart enough to see the practical similarities.

    Donna Holman, 68, had protested abortion for nearly 30 years when she met Dan a few years ago on a road trip sponsored by Missionaries to the Preborn, a Wisconsin-based anti-abortion group.

    Sounds like organized support to me. And whether or not there are "abortion bombers"... did you read the article? Do you think they don't exist? That it's a left-wing media conspiracy?

    Because the movement isn't as popular or immediate in the fundie Christian community of America as Hamas, etc are in the West Bank. Duh.
     
  6. Demosthenes

    Demosthenes Member+

    May 12, 2003
    Berkeley, CA
    Nat'l Team:
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    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Home-grown Taliban?


    Lack a sense of humor much?

    Just so you don't get too smug, catching me out like that, I'll point out that I was responding to this statement:
    So Mike brought up the Christians. I just gave an explanation for the phenomenon he was observing.

    On the other hand, I love the idea of you there, hunched over your keyboard, watching, hoping, waiting for me to slip up and admit that there's a special place in my heart for the anti-abortion brand of terrorist. Will you just go away if I admit to that?
     
  7. Eric B

    Eric B Member

    Feb 21, 2000
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    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Home-grown Taliban?

    Now, THAT'S condecension, folks!

    At what point did I say that arson was on the same scale as murder? I don't necessarily feel that, but that doesn't meant that I can't throw out a big ol' "So What?" to making that distinction. Going out of your way to point you're making that value judgment borders on engaging in the rationalizing Segroves was accusing Demo of a few pages ago (even though I know neither you nor her are advocating that point). Or at least making a contrary point just to have an argument.
     
  8. Ian McCracken

    Ian McCracken Member

    May 28, 1999
    USA
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    Disclaimer: Neither of these links deal directly with the current SoCal fires.

    I found at least 8 other articles dealing with fires started by eco-terrorists, many of them in southern California. I'm not outright accusing ELF for the current flame-up, but all I've got to say is where there's smoke there's fire.

    Eco-terrorists suspected in blazes

    SAN DIEGO – Police suspect members of a radical environmentalist movement set fires that destroyed four houses under construction at two locations in the Torrey Highlands neighborhood of northwestern San Diego.



    ELF alert: Could a recent rash of fires be the work of eco-terrorists?

    By Ryan Slattery

    Homes are burning all across the valley. Well, the framed-up skeletons of homes, that is. From North Las Vegas to Spring Valley to Henderson, construction site fires have become an all-too-familiar sight here, leaving many to wonder who is responsible as more of the blazes get tagged with the "suspicious" label.
     
  9. Garcia

    Garcia Member

    Dec 14, 1999
    Castro Castro
    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Home-grown Taliban?

    For what the FBI is doing in 2003...

    http://www.fbi.gov/pressrel/pressrel.htm
     
  10. Dan Loney

    Dan Loney BigSoccer Supporter

    Mar 10, 2000
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    Trite.
     
  11. DoctorJones24

    DoctorJones24 Member

    Aug 26, 1999
    OH
    This thread is a hoot. It displays all the inane pecuilarities of internet discussion boards in just a few pages.

    Demosthenes raises an interesting and useful question. Segroves and monopoly spend the next 7 pages on the most ridiculous quibbling imaginable, totally preventing anyone from really discussng the issue, as they each keep hijacking the thread to further their own small-minded crusades. Quite comical, and yet frustrating as hell.

    Back on topic...

    Demo's question is important because "terrorism" has become such a loaded term in the past couple years that its meaning is no longer transparent. And yet pundits keep throwing it around in such phrases as the moronic "War on Terror." Even Thomas Friedman has made the embarrassingly ignorant claim that "All the terrorists who have hit us are Muslims."

    First, lets agree on the term: terrorism implies that someone is put in bodily/psychological danger. It's not simply dumping tea in Boston Harbor or destroying an empty SUV. The word "terror" implies a level of fear that such acts do not engender.

    Are ELF and the KKK both groups that engage in unlawful acts to get their points across? Yes. Are they both thus terrorist groups? No.

    Certainly we have homegrown terrorists, and always have: the KKK, some anti-abortionists, lots of political wackos who've assassinated the likes of MLK and Lincoln, luddites like Kazinkski, the OK City bombers, and so on.
     
  12. DoctorJones24

    DoctorJones24 Member

    Aug 26, 1999
    OH
    But "hate crime" is just such a trite and dumb name for it. It begs to be rejected even though the general concept is worth considering. Better to call it an "communalist crime," which implies that the crime was clearly intended to spark MORE violence.
     
  13. John Galt

    John Galt Member

    Aug 30, 2001
    Atlanta
    I'm going back to my point: How can one reconcile the concept that we "should do more about domestic terrorists" with the idea that the Patriot Act infringes on our civil liberties?

    Swarthy or pale, if we want to redefine all this crap as "terrorism" where do we stop? Drug dealers get their heroin from Afghanistan opium growers or Colombian rebels, so now is drug dealing terrorism, and subject to the greater investigative powers of the Patriot Act?

    The griping about which is worse neglects the real question. Why would anyone who cares about our civil liberties want to rebrand this stuff as "terrorism" just to lower the threshold for investigating and prosecuting people?
     
  14. Matrim55

    Matrim55 Member+

    Aug 14, 2000
    Berkeley
    Club:
    Connecticut
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    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Home-grown Taliban?

    In the 1980s, he began blocking entrance to clinics and harassing doctors and clinic staff. Holman said he's been arrested more than 300 times and figures he's spent about four of the last 10 years in prison.
    From the freaking article.

    So only religious fundamentalists can be terrorists now? Sorry, but I don't buy "we'll they haven't killed anyone, yet" as an excuse not to hunt them down.
    From what I can only assume was one of your more lucid fever-dreams. Page 2 of this thread if you're confused.

    We managed to catch McVeigh, Kaczynski and scores of unnamed whackos before the Patriot Act. If a thin bit of jingoistic legislature makes you feel safe then I suggest we revisit the Indian Removal Act of 1830 and have this discussion on another thread.

    Is this a piss-take? Seriously, is that what this has been about? That you're upset about something Demosthenes might theoretically do in a hypothetical situation at an as yet undetermined time?

    Might want to think about dropping some Zoloft into your Jim Beam every morning, Tonto.

    I don't. Both should have an FBI/HSD bug up their ass and the IRS pouring over their 1040's for deductions related to their "causes". I'm not sure printing supplies for pictures of aborted fetuses or flammable accelerants should constitute business deductions.
    Your words, not mine. You've talked yourself into so many circles you don't even know if you want to shoot them, prosecute them, bug them or let them walk free, unobserved through the fields of the lord.

    Pick a lane.

    I thought that "stopping" them was an infringement upon their civil rights, which you were so ready to use when it was convenient to your argument two paragraphs ago. Now you want to shoot them dead.

    Forget the Zoloft and go straight to lithium. It's your only chance.

    Wow, Mike. That's as subtle as it is insightful. I won't intrude upon this part of your imaginary conversation any further.

    But here's some more from your entrance essay for The Ari Fleischer School of Context:
    And you conveniently leave out her previous quote, which is:

    Yeah, these guys are annoying - and they're extremists - and they should be stopped - and what they do is a crime - that's all true.

    So either the left are too astringent in their policies towards eco-terror (see your first three paragraphs in this very post), or they're "casually indifferent" (see your previous insane paragraph). Or maybe it's just that you've perceived some imaginary slight, and fighting an internet war is how you reclaim your manhood.

    Nah, couldn't possibly be that one.

    You're not Pontiac at Detroit. You're not even Lee at Appomattox. You're Hirohito on August 15th after I've just nuked two of your largest cities.

    I don't think he's talking about murder either, do you? Have you gone back to not distinguishing the difference between murder and arson, as is your view on Page 2:

    Or can you distinguish between murder and arson, as is your view on Page 3:

    You can leave your sword with my lieutenant. And give me your colors, too - you walk off this field with no honor.
     
  15. monop_poly

    monop_poly Member

    May 17, 2002
    Chicago
    I don't want to quibble, but we are only on 5 pages.

    Totally agree with your assessment that the term "terrorism" has been broadened to a point where it is emptied of all meaning. This thread is a case in point. I'm waiting for the moment when Roy Moore is declared a psychological terrorist.

    But this thread was never about an "important" question. From the get-go, it's been about the terminal cuteness of an attempt to equate the fringe elements of the pro-life movement with Al Qaeda.
     
  16. Matrim55

    Matrim55 Member+

    Aug 14, 2000
    Berkeley
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    Six, genius.

    And rather than address that you prefer to villify and mock the thread-starter and anyone who attempts to seriously engage in a discussion on the topic. You've successfully hoisted yourself upon your own petard.
     
  17. monop_poly

    monop_poly Member

    May 17, 2002
    Chicago
    Quibbler.


    The groupie protests too much, methinks. Angling for a date?
     
  18. Matrim55

    Matrim55 Member+

    Aug 14, 2000
    Berkeley
    Club:
    Connecticut
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    I'm learning to speak your language.

    You're much more interesting when you're complaining about my condescention. I pity you, though, as I imagine it must be hard being a fat, balding, 45 year old agoraphobic virgin.
     
  19. MtMike

    MtMike Member+

    Nov 18, 1999
    the 417
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    Okay, let's compare real terrorists and supposed "Christian Terrorists" right here in the USA, just for comparison's sake.

    One group has:

    -Blown up 2 towers, killing 3,000 people
    -Blown up the Kobar towers, killing 100+ people
    -Bombed a US destroyer, killing 20+ soldiers
    -A Bali Nightclub bombing, killing hundreds.
    -Many, more things that we don't have time to mention.

    The "Christian Terrorists, USA" have:

    -Had 4 or 5 people over the last 10 years (out of a nation where 40-50% claim to be Christians) commit a murder on someone they disagree with.
    -said some things people don't like.

    Dang, I'm gonna have to tell my pastor to stop preaching to blow up the county courthouse. People are starting to catch on.

    This notion that "fundies" or Christians or anyone who has enough gall to speak out against the latest liberal agenda are terrorists is bunk, incorrect, not grounded in fact, politically or otherwise motivated, and, in general, not right.
     
  20. monop_poly

    monop_poly Member

    May 17, 2002
    Chicago
    Too late Mike, this thread has already reached the Pee Wee Herman "I know you are, but what am I?" stage.
     
  21. Dan Loney

    Dan Loney BigSoccer Supporter

    Mar 10, 2000
    Cincilluminati
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    Eric Rudolph, assclown. That is, if you don't count Tim McVeigh. And there are something short of a billion Muslims who aren't going out and killing people. And since you're allowing Muslim terror categories to cross borders, may I suggest a getaway vacation to Belfast and Derry?

    Originally posted by Segroves, back there a bit
    Regarding the benefit in keeping the racist in three extra years: well, if this were a political debate, I'd simply puff up and say "I think a racist SHOULD be kept off the streets!" However, the real question would be why the hit man gets three fewer years in prison.

    Because, well, it's not as bad a crime as the racist. The guy who burns down stores doesn't really want to, per se - he'd rather have the protection money. The guy who burns down a church, though, can't be talked out of it.

    Without claiming expertise in the correctional system, I think it's more likely that a mobster would decide to go straight after a few years in the cage, than a racist would stop being a racist. So society benefits from the longer sentence to the latter, despite the same crime. Motive has always played a part in criminal justice.
     
  22. Matrim55

    Matrim55 Member+

    Aug 14, 2000
    Berkeley
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    Finally someone who actually wants to address the actual subject of this thread. Only took 6 1/2 pages...

    True. In terms of population, scope, total numbers and resources there is no comparison to be made. Al-Qaeda and Islamofascists as a whole are clearly the 800 pound gorilla.

    But that doesn't change the fact that psychos like Rudolph, Holman, Hill and other hardline Christian fundies use and advocate the same methods of "terror" as Al-Qaeda, and base it on a radical religious ideology.

    If that's what your pastor is doing I suggest you put a slug in his skull, because he's giving practicing Christians a bad name. But I somehow doubt that; instead, I assume the above is an attempt at sarcastic refutation of the claim that all Christians are fundamentalists, and all pro-lifers are "abortion bombers".

    It's a claim that no one has made anywhere on this thread.

    That's true. But what about people who shoot abortion doctors? Or burn ski lodges?

    And it works in reverse as well: The notion that "liberals" or Democrats or anyone who has enough gall to call irresponsible religious leaders like Pat Robertson to the mat are terrorists is bunk, incorrect, not grounded in fact, politically or otherwise motivated, and, in general, not right.
     
  23. MtMike

    MtMike Member+

    Nov 18, 1999
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    Well, Loney, Rudolph falls under the 4 or 5 people out of a population of half the country that claim to be Christians. When did McVeigh ever claim to do it in Christ's name???? or for God??? IIRC, his motives was the government's botching of the Koresh affair in Waco. In fact, wasn't it on an anniversary of that happening. Was McVeigh a terrorist? Absolutely. A Christian terrorist? doing it for Christ? a fundie? A religious "nut? No.

    Matrim, I appreciate your more civil response.

    Yes, the comment about my pastor was sarcasm. I apologize if it did not come across clearly as such. And while no one has said that all Christians are terrorists, they go almost as far. Fundies is not exactly used as a term of endearment on this board. To some, even on this board, people like me, who believe the Bible, are dangerous. Why? I don't know.

    Obviously there is no place for killing abortion doctors, rejoicing in their death, or any such thing. My point is that how many abortion clinics have been bombed in the past 10 years? How many abortion doctors murdered nationwide (solely because of their occupation-- the doc knocking up the nurse and her husband offing him doesn't count)? Very, Very few. But, according to some, these 4 or 5 instances is indictative of some nationwide Christian terrorists network. Hence my sarcastic comment about my pastor.

    And I do agree with your comment concerning it working the other way, but it happens to a much lesser extent. Obviously, there are time when well-known Christians (such as Robertson) deserve and should receive criticism. So long as it is done in a fair, truthful, and professional manner, I have no problem with it.
     
  24. Demosthenes

    Demosthenes Member+

    May 12, 2003
    Berkeley, CA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    How many times have Islamic fundamentalists perpetrated attacks on American soil? One, maybe two?

    My question to you is, how many attacks have to occur before we can call this a uniquely American brand of religious fundamentalist terrorism? In an interesting parallel to the Islamic world, we have people here in our country who use terrorist tactics in an attempt to impose their whacked-out religious extremism on everyone else. So the question is, is that terrorism? They are organized. They are committing violence. They are getting help and refuge from their communities - or at least Eric Rudolf was. How big does the organization have to be and how much blood to they have to spill before this matters?
     
  25. Garcia

    Garcia Member

    Dec 14, 1999
    Castro Castro
    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Home-grown Taliban?

    One guy after some 17 years and printing his crap. Another after he was caught speeding.

    You forgot the terrorist who went back for his deposit on the van he rented (to blow up). I sure hope he got the extra insurance.

    How about the smart guy who was out killing half of NYC and got a parking ticket? I wonder why the nieghbor's dog forgot to tell him to obey all street signs before telling to go out and killing people.

    I guess we don't need to protect ourselves when it is obvious that criminals are stupid.

    Oh yea, some of the 9/11 terrorists got speeding tickets before 9/11. Stupid police!
     

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