Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Home-grown Taliban? Yes - I'm sure you chose the criminal acts of anti-abortionists at random.
Crimes against property are not the same as crimes against people. Throwing the SoCal wildfires in is a red herring because (a) I haven't heard anything about ELF setting those fires, and they certainly didn't set any of the other fires we've had over the past ten years, so let's wait for the trial before we have the necktie party; and (b) the SoCal wildfires qualify as murder now. Yeah, ELF's malicious stupidity could end up killing people, the way they're going, and they should be stopped. But their tactics aren't as bad as anti-abortionists going out and killing people. I'm more worried about anti-abortionist terrorists than ELF at the moment. If ELF turns out to have set the fires here, then I'll cheerfully recant. ELF is to environmentalism as Eric Rudolph is to Methodism, of course, but I don't expect the moral relativists on the right to grasp that anytime soon. Here's what we've forgotten, I think - it doesn't really matter why someone sets off a bomb in a public place, shoots a civilian, burns down a church - there's not a good reason for it. If Israel shot an abortion provider in order to fight Hamas, that wouldn't justify it. If George Bush set the fires in order to fight Iraqi insurgents, that wouldn't justify it. The reason is irrelevant. These are crimes, nothing more.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Home-grown Taliban? Look, Manny, I'll catch you up. I said that what they do is a crime and is deplorable. I never said it was all right or excusable. But from what I could tell from the site, that particular group isn't advocating murder, so I wasn't going to include them in the discussion. Segroves thinks what they do is just as bad as murder, and that's one way of looking at it. Certainly their actions could easily lead to accidental deaths, and certainly it is terrorism - per someone's pretty good definition: Can we get past that now? It is no defense of anti-abortion terrorists to point out environmentalist terrorists. Not any person. Just you, Mike. Just you. I don't know what to respond to this. You really are a learning disabled, 11-year-old behaviorial problem, aren't you? Why, oh why on earth would I lie about what I was thinking of writing about? And yet you can't imagine why it makes me shudder to think of visiting "your world." I'm concerned about what is being done to stop American terrorist groups, and whether it's enough. But more than that, I'm concerned about how the news media, and the public seeming to ingore it, or at best view it as the random acts of individual crazies. I wonder where this violently extremist impulse comes from - given that you can't say it's something inherent to Islam, or to dire poverty, or to political disenfranchisement. Basically, I just wanted to point it out. It may be obvious to you, being from Oklahoma. But I think most Americans have forgotten that, prior to 9/11, the most deadly terrorist attack on American soil was perpetrated by Americans.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Home-grown Taliban? Those are certainly valid questions for discussion, and very relevant since we are in the midst of a war against terrorism. I also have a lot of questions in regards to this subject. I was always under the impression that the kind of fanatical fundamentalism that leads people to terrorism is more likely to emerge under a despotic government than under a liberal democracy. But there is no doubt that there are criminal wackos everywhere. It is interesting that the US terrorist groups that we brought up (ie. anti-abortion, environmentalism), are people who very strongly believe a certain issue is right and feel betrayed by our government and society for failing to act on that issue. The most extreme of them are willing to commit crimes in the name of their issue and feel that they are morally justified. So, is this type of person the equivalent of a fanatic who is taught since childhood at a radical school that he should give his life for his God in order to kill the infidels, or are they completely different animals? Maybe some of you are experts in sociology and can shed more light on this subject. Are there any studies or theories about these issues? As Demosthenes points out, there are some wackos in our country. But it still seems that the ratio of wackos to regular people is much higher in the Middle East than it is in the USA and other Western countries. But why? Is it their political system, their religion, their social structure, their culture? What are the reasons for this madness?
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Home-grown Taliban? Alrighty, Demosthenes, based on this, let me ask you. What do you think of the Patriot Act? Are you in favor of using its broader criminal investigation tools for investigating environmental terrorists and abortion terrorists? How about drug terrorists? Anti-war "terrorists"? etc., etc. In other words, what policy are you pushing with this?
I can't imagine that the above is really addressed to anything I wrote. If it is, it's comforting to know you think 2+2 equals a bushel of potatos. The comparison was between Holman's lot and the Taliban. The similarities are striking. If you think the equivalency stated in this thread is anything beyond that I'll question what good an OU degree is. No, it's arson. Which is bad. They should, and I imagine they are watched rather closely by our friends in Langley. Here's the value judgement, though: Arson is not as bad as Murder. Comparing the ELF fundies to the Taliban/Al Qaeda works on one level; comparing Holman's fundies to the Taliban/Al Qaeda works on many, many more levels. Why don't we just line the three of them up and have you play "Which one of these is not like the others?" and see what you come up with. And you're not willing to make a stand on which group deserves more of our attention? You think we should spend the same amount of time, money and resources taking on the ELF that we've spent on Al Qaeda? I think that's completely fucking insane. So in your world, the only thing the Klan has ever done is burn a few churches in the South. You live in Bizarro-Oklahoma or something? It's nice to know that you think burning down a ski lodge is as bad as flying a couple of planes into the Twin Towers.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Home-grown Taliban? To be honest, I don't know all the details of the Patriot Act, but from what I do know - surprise! - I don't care for it. So, no, I wouldn't want it used for this purpose or for any other; I'd prefer to see it repealed. I'm not sure what you mean by drug terrorists? And are there anti-war terrorists? In the end I'm not pushing for any particular policy change. I'm just wondering why attitudes are so different when the fundamentalists aren't so swarthy.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Home-grown Taliban? Not to single you out, but if you are to repeal the Patriot Act, by what realistic and effective means are you monitor possible terrorist activity..? I am not saying the PA is the ultimate solution, but until I hear better solutions, and not idealistic left wing banter, I cant totally discard it.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Home-grown Taliban? The FBI, CIA, Secret Service, NSA, Office Of Homeland Security, etc etc etc. Think these guys haven't learned a few things in the past couple of years? Think they weren't pretty damn good before that, 9-11 not withstanding? No incidents on the millenium celebration for one - think that was because the terrorists took the day off? Didn't think that was a good day to pop in for a visit? We hear about their failures, rightly so, but not about their successes. Also rightly so, but it skews public perception. The security services screwed up big time on 9-11, but they know what they're looking for now. Just like they learned what they were looking for domestically after the OKC bombing. No more domestic incidents of note in the almost decade since then, and that's not because militia whackos aren't out there. We're better off without the Patriot Act than with it, even if it weren't an affront to every principle this nation were founded on. Given it is that and much, much more, I'm counting the days until it takes its rightful place in the trash bin next to the house on un-american activities and alien and sedition acts.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Home-grown Taliban? No thanks, I'm driving. The anthrax mailer is/was likely a "lone gunman", a political extremist with a clear ideology but no support group around him or obvious agenda. Think Ted Kaczinski, not Tim McVeigh. Comparing the methods/motives of McVeigh and a "mail terrorist" is an apples to oranges proposition. Not that I expect you to understand as much.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Home-grown Taliban? Yes but extreme Christian fundamentalists like goths and cockroaches. For every one you see, there are thousands more scurrying around underground.
Re: Re: Re: Home-grown Taliban? Yeah, these guys are annoying - and they're extremists - and they should be stopped - and what they do is a crime - that's all true. - Demosthenes Third reply in the thread. "...they're extremists - and they should be stopped - and what they do is a crime..." In fact, she takes a stronger stance then you: You only think they should be "watched", whereas she thinks they should be "stopped". When did you become an apologist for eco-terrorists? I think that's an acceptable scenario, and I'd vote for you if you guys entered as independents next year and ran on that platform. But your arguments approximating the ELF with Al Qaeda suggests that you'd also nuke Portland, Oregon, which I think is a bit rash. Show me the quote where someone on this thread says different. That's the point. Arson and Murder are both felonies, but it's a matter of scale. I maintain that the ELF isn't as evil as Al Qaeda or the abortion bombers not because of the political agendas, but because one group advocates property destruction and the other murder. All are criminals, all need to be "stopped", but as you say, it's a matter of scale. And on the scale, murder matters more. Show me the quote where someone gave ELF a free pass because they don't burn stuff in the name of "God". I swear to vishnu if it's in this thread, I zipped right by it without noticing.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Home-grown Taliban? This should be in a FAQ, then. When's the "Out of Context Block Party Weekend"?
Re: Re: Re: Home-grown Taliban? Originally posted by Demosthenes I'm just wondering why attitudes are so different when the fundamentalists aren't so swarthy. Me too.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Home-grown Taliban? My attitude towards all three is the same, unlike the attitude of you and Demosthenes, according to Segroves. The joke I was trying to make was that the ELF's mission (the use of physical, guerilla force to enforce a rigid hyper-morality on the general public) is akin to that of AQ and Holt's ilk.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Home-grown Taliban? Mike's been hitting the Old Crow all day if this thread is any indication, so let's steer clear of "according to Segroves" if we can. Agree there. The difference is the ELF don't advocate murder. I'm willing to make a value judgement on that; the fact that you aren't able to (Segroves eventually did) is kind of shocking.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Home-grown Taliban? Thanks for condescending. I know it's natural for you, but thanks just the same.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Home-grown Taliban? Boo hoo. Go back to page 2 and answer the questions I asked you and I'll treat you otherwise. Until then, go back to your hole.