http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=12&u=/ap/20031029/ap_on_re_us/abortion_foe_3 If we're waging a war on terrorism, maybe we should start at home.
Re: Re: Home-grown Taliban? Yeah, these guys are annoying - and they're extremists - and they should be stopped - and what they do is a crime - that's all true. But come on. It appears that their worst crime is property destruction. Have they killed anybody? Have they cheered anybody's murder? Granted, I didn't read the whole site. Just wondering.
Re: Re: Re: Home-grown Taliban? They haven't killed anyone.... YET! Next time they decide to set a fire they might not be so lucky.
Re: Re: Re: Home-grown Taliban? In certain states, you can get killed for trying to steal somebody's truck! It is only a matter of time until some poor janitor is killed when he is just doing his job at night. End. Justify. Means.
It is all the same. Extremists take what they consider to be a good thing (the life of a fetus, their environmental ideas, a certain interpretation of the Koran, etc.) and place the value of this 'good thing' above the value of the life, property and basic rights of everyone and everything else. No matter how strongly we may feel about any specific issue, it is always important to keep it in perspective, lets we become like these radicals.
Re: Re: Re: Home-grown Taliban? There are rumors swirling that the Earth Liberation Front was responsible for the start of the fires in California. They have started fires before to destroy businesses (car dealerships, new construction, etc), so I wouldn't put this one past them.
Just had a quick look at the ELF website, and they've been playing Final Fantasy VII, whilst listening to Billy Joel way too much. And if they had started those fires in California, well then they're just stupid. Although I agree with Argentinesoccerfan, these kind of people do need a good slap.
Ah yes, the "Reverend" Fred Phelps and his people. I wouldn't consider them terrorists, though. Morons, definitely.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Home-grown Taliban? Or perhaps there are people on the board who have the ability to distinguish between murder and arson, regardless of the political motivation. Hitting the firewater a little early today, are we?
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Home-grown Taliban? Yeah, it's not like arson could lead tobillions of dollars in damage or kill people.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Home-grown Taliban? Yes, but it's a red herring in the original discussion. The comparison is between Holman's Lot and the Taliban/Al Qaeda. Both are religious fundies who advocate murder as the means of achieving their stated goal. Duh. Duh duh duh. Yeah, but somehow if that were the case I doubt the thread-starter would compare them to the freaking Taliban. She'd probably have gone with other contemptable, less dangerous wackos like the ELF. It's nice to know you're channeling Karl Keller these days.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Home-grown Taliban? Yeah, "it's all OK". That's exactly what I said. Is your reading comprehension really this poor? Adult literacy classes - look into them. Personally, I see a difference between a call for property damage, versus, say, publishing a list of doctors' names who perform abortions - with a line through the names of those who've been murdered. There's a moral and practical difference there. But the reason I posted the article was not to argue over whether the left or the right have more dangerous extremists. I deplore extremism in any form - most especially when it's done in the name of a cause I believe in. It only makes the cause and its supporters look bad. My question, really, is this: do we have a home-grown Al-Qaeda in our religious, or if you like, environmentalist extremists here in the US? How serious a threat do these groups pose? Are they a few scattered nuts, or are they a real danger to our homeland security? There are many similarities between someone who bombs an abortion clinic and someone who bombs the World Trade Center. We talk a lot about violent fundamentalism in the Middle East, as though only their backwards Muslim despotic regimes could produce that kind of thinking/behavior. But clearly Americans are also capable of it.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Home-grown Taliban? This reminded me of a scene in Woody Allen's "Bananas." Demo sounds just like Miss America is testifying against Woody in a mock court scene -- "Differences of opinion should be tolerated, but not when they're too different. Then he becomes a subversive mother." Priceless.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Home-grown Taliban? I'm sorry, I thought we were specifically discussing people who commit violent crimes based on their differences of opinion, as opposed to those who just hold extreme views. Was I not clear about that? My bad. I'm beginning to think I need to use shorter words or something.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Home-grown Taliban? Well, specifically, you decided that this scum-guy Holman was a terrorist even though he apparently has not actually committed a violent crime. Why? Because it fits your political agenda. This in your clear thinking is within the definition of terrorism because he holds an extreme view and HOPES abortionists are killed. Also, in your clear thinking, actual acts of arson are not terrorism because "it's only property." Then to round it out, upon challenge, you backtrack to the safe haven of full political correctness that you hold dear ... except for chubby girls ... and pretend to ask earnest questions about whether murderers of abortionists are few-and-far-between exceptions or a growing group that we should be concerned about. Your bad, indeed.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Home-grown Taliban? Well, you know, we killed a lot of Taliban fellows who hadn't committed violent crimes. Why? Because they advocated murder of US citizens as a means to a political end. Are. You. Too. Stupid. To. See. The. Similarity. You betcha.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Home-grown Taliban? You're right - this guy has not committed a terrorist act. But the court has seen fit to order him to keep a certain distance from the clinics, indicating they view him as a potential threat. But that's not the point. It's not so much what this guy has done or hasn't which bothers me - if he only hoped abortion doctors were killed but it never happened, that wouldn't be a problem. The problem is that it does happen (and he does support it). You can ignore that larger problem if you like, and I promise I will not accuse you of ignoring terrorism when it fits your political agenda. I did not say that arson is not terrorism. I said the ELF group and those who murder doctors are not exactly morally equivalent. I think there is a stronger analogy between the anti-abortion violence and mid-east terrorism, than between this particular ELF group and Al-Qaeda. But I also conceded that, for the purposes of this discussion, we don't need to acknowledge the difference. Did you read that part? You really should read the whole thread. It might help. Backtrack? That's brilliant. If I disagree with you, I'm wrong. But if I concede your point, I'm backtracking. Never mind that, when I started this thread, I never said anything to imply that the left doesn't have it's own dangerous extremists, nor that the left's extremists are less of a concern than the right's. I only posted the link and the suggestion that terrorism exists in the United States. The questions I posed, which you call pretend earnestness, I thought were implied. Given that some of you aren't too quick on the uptake, I stated them explicitly. You saw the link I posted and you assumed I was making a comment about the right, or about Christians, or about abortion protesters. That's your own paranoia. Maybe if you weren't so desperately defensive, you could just address the questions instead of reading some personal insult into them.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Home-grown Taliban? Right on cue ... Demosthenes' groupie shows up.
*shudder* Yes, I was about to bring this up. Tim McVeigh didn't work alone, and he didn't come up with his ideas on his own. Clearly his type poses the most serious threat, or at least most dangerous, of the home-grown terrorist groups. My concern is not so much that we're wasting resources on these groups. If they are a danger, as they have proved to be, then fighting them is part of the "war on terror," not a distraction from it, and resources spent in the process are being usefully spent. They are not just a nuisance. They are a serious threat.