Holland vs. Scotland (Aftermath of Game 1)

Discussion in 'The Netherlands' started by trams, Nov 15, 2003.

  1. trams

    trams New Member

    Nov 13, 2003
    West Palm Beach, FL
    My opinions....

    The only players who impressed me in game 1 are Jaap Stam and Rafael van der Vaart. Now that Stam is out for game 2 I think we have a major defensive problem, because I didn't see anyone else play with any determination. Someone needs to keep close watch on the 2 kids for Scotland (Mcfadden, Flectcher).

    Rafael van der Vaart needs to start in game 2! He is the only one putting shots on goal and making things happen. Not to mention the pass to set up a great opportunity which Seedorf botched! When RVDV came in the game mid way through the second half, you knew something was different. Our pace was faster and we got some of the best looks at goal the entire game.

    --------------------------------------

    I would like to hear the opinions of everyone on what exactly are Holland's downfalls. Is it the coach, the defense, the midfield, the forwards, or a combination? Also, what adjustments should be made for game 2?

    ---------------------------------------

    We need to come out in Game 2 in Amsterdam with some fire and justify why we are one of the best teams in the world!

    Hup Holland!
     
  2. v.brown

    v.brown New Member

    Nov 13, 2003
    Burma

    for the second leg in Amsterdam!
    I agree VDV must be in first 11.
    The best performer was VDMD & Stam, whose absence would be a big blow for us.
    Oranges played better after Davids and Kluivert
    are out.
    We are better team but beaten for just 2 main reasons.
    1 Bad luck.
    2 DA didn't expact blitzkrieg of German coach duing first 25 minutes.
    Suggested line up for game 2 is
    Defenders Reizeger, Ooijer & De boer
    Mid field VDMD, VDV,Seedorf,Cocu & Overmars
    Strikers Ruud & Makaay
    This 3 days are the most important tome ever for Netherlands to fix up the first 11.
     
  3. trams

    trams New Member

    Nov 13, 2003
    West Palm Beach, FL
    V. Brown

    I agree with the line up. Kluivert is not producing as well as I thought he was prior to seeing this game. I believe Makaay and van Nistelrooy will be a great duo up front. Although I doubt Advocaat thinks so (unfortunately).

    I have no doubt VDV will start next game, unless Advocaat really doesn't want to coach oranje anymore. Sometimes I think he wants us to lose with some of his akward decisions. Well only time will tell, at any rate I have no doubt we will be shocked at Wednesday's lineup so way or another.

    Cheers V. Brown

    Hup Holland!
     
  4. astabooty

    astabooty Member

    Nov 16, 2002
    China
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    trams did the place in weston show the game?

    and about the shot seedorf botched. i am pretty sure he created it himself. he was standing in front of the box with a defender in front of him and to his right, passed it straight ahead to kluivert, ran to his right, past the defender and kluivert did a 1 touch pass to him.
     
  5. Oscar

    Oscar Member+

    Nov 30, 2001
    Holland
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Nat'l Team:
    Spain
    I don't understand why people are bítching about Kluivert and giving van overrato-oy so much confidence, not just on this board but in general. Kluivert in no way had a great game, but the two biggest chances to score came because of him, what exactly did Ruud do the entire game? Nothing, what else is new. No wait, I'm not being fair, he ruined a fantastic pass given by Makaay.

    If this guy wasn't playing for Manchester United, I doubt he'd even be selected anymore or given so much support by the people, the way he has performed in Oranje.
     
  6. Motterman

    Motterman Member

    Jul 8, 2002
    Orlando, FL
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You are absolutely right. It's because he plays for Manchester United, and especially what he DOES for Manchester United. If Holland could enjoy the form Ruud displays for his club team, Holland would be Top 4 or 5 in the World - or the Best on any given day.

    Most people know what Ruud is capable of and want to give him every opportunity to duplicate that success for the Oranje. Being slagged off when he's been forced to play with a clearly past it Kluivert has not worked so far. Time to try something different.

    It should start with pairing him with Makaay and playing Van der Vaart in midweek.

    After that, fire Advocaat and prepare for Portugal.

    "Only because he plays for Manchester United..." EXACTLY.
     
  7. johno

    johno Member+

    Jul 15, 2003
    in the wind
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    --other--
    Well, we all know that Kluivert is being selected for his sparkling domestic form!

    Kluivert imo should come off the bench... super sub, but to start a game with someone who plays like center in the NBA (posts up alot) when you have players like Ruud, VDV and Makaay who can and do take defenders on in droves makes little sense for a team playing attacking football.

    I believe though, that both Kluiv and Ruud are talented and smart enough to succeed together, as are any other pairing that could be selected. The problem though is an understanding and continuity that Holland's game lacks... If it were up to me, I would drop Kluiv, and keep only one of Ruud/Makaay in the starting 11 and play the youth, Davids might not play as much and Seedorf would not either. Give the young guys the chance to play together for as many as 10 years. These stars have been doing their own thing for too long, they wont comply to a coach's desire when they dont have to contend with him all year long. (especially if he does not pay their wages)

    Holland lacks team chemistry and its because these guys play in Italy, Spain, England, Holland etc. they play different brands of football and you cant expect great results from them when just putting them together, so whoever you select, let them get a good run of matches together. Once they get used to playing with each other, the wins and the dominance will come.
     
  8. trams

    trams New Member

    Nov 13, 2003
    West Palm Beach, FL
    van Nistelrooy etc.

    I'd like to see Makaay and van Nistelrooy up front next game. It may or may not work, but we know Kluivert and RVN don't work, so let's try something different. We all know Ruud can play.

    Compare Ruud and Kluivert's skills and who do you think wins out? Always Ruud, unless your crazy. Ruud is just not a pretty good player in the premiership, he is arguably the best.

    Ok, so lets move on. Makaay and Kluivert. Who's a better player skill wise? Dead Even.

    So what do we lose by taking Kluivert out? Not much. Nothing Makaay can't do. But what could we lose if we take RVN out? We lose a chance to have one of the best stikers in the world playing up front for oranje.

    Asta... correct, Seedorf did create that play, I was highlighting the awareness of van der Vaart (not kluivert) for being a big part of that play. And then Seedorf missing what I thought was one of the best opportunities for goal all day. Although I do recognize Seedorf for creating the play in the first place (Thanks for reminding me of that). I posted a reply to you in the "next game for van Nistelrooy" thread about the Cinema 8. Thanks again.

    What next for oranje, I can only speculate. I guess we are forced to trust Dickie and hope he knows his players and what his best team is and field them wednesday. If he doesn't and we lose, even he said his time as Holland's Coach is over.

    Hup Holland!
     
  9. Oscar

    Oscar Member+

    Nov 30, 2001
    Holland
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Nat'l Team:
    Spain
    The last posts being good examples of people believing into the Ruud van overrato hype because he's a Manchester United player. :D

    Since Ruud has become a starter for Oranje, Kluivert hasn't even played as a straight striker anymore (where he performs best) yet still he always gives a better performance than Ruud (like last night) who does get to play on his best spot.

    I don't know which skills you're talking about, but since Kluivert is easily the better technical player of the two (If you did mean this, I'm gonna laugh and point at you) I'm guessing you're meaning which player gets the best results........

    Mister Link

    Kluivert is Holland's all time top scorer, van Nistelrooij isn't even in the top 25.

    Not that many penalties to up your score count to be taken in Oranje I guess. :D
     
  10. Germanshepherd

    Germanshepherd New Member

    May 19, 2003
    Rostock, Deutschland
    Holland has a midfield problem. (They have shown the game live in german TV). They lack ideas.

    And most of alle they have no leader in the team, veryone wants to decide the game.

    Edgar Davids was incredibly bad, Stam impressed me.

    I can`t believe that it isn`t possible to make a team out of all these stars. Maybe Advocaat is just not good enough?
     
  11. ZZ10

    ZZ10 New Member

    Sep 4, 2002
    PARIS
    Re: van Nistelrooy etc.

    Thierry Henry might disagree with this assessment :) But I reckon RVN is a fantastic player. I hope you guys will qualify for the Euro04 otherwise the tournament will miss one of Europe's best team. Good luck for wednesday.
     
  12. astabooty

    astabooty Member

    Nov 16, 2002
    China
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    i completely agree with oscar on this one. at man u i dont think he is overrated (does score a lot of penalties tho), but he just doesnt do it for the dutch, kluivert does.
    i dont get dick. everyone for a while has said they cannot work together, the media started saying, and hell even then dickie admitted they dont work together, so using his vast knowledge and expertise he puts them together again. at this point i would prefer P-Air to Ruud (not with kluivert as a partner tho). i just love those freekicks. i dont think kluivert has done anything to lose his job, just as i dont think ruud has earned it. i wanna see makaay in there.
     
  13. afgrijselijkheid

    Dec 29, 2002
    mokum
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    no maybe about it - it's not too impressive winning titles in scotland because it's basically a two horse race every season
     
  14. TravisMinor_23

    TravisMinor_23 New Member

    Oct 16, 2001
    United States
    Well, I'll start the lineup hopes....

    ---------Van der Sar------------
    Reizinger-De Boer-Van Bronckhorst
    --------Davids-Seedorf----------
    van der Meyde----------Overmars
    ----------van der Vaart---------
    -----Makaay--------RVN--------

    Of course, we'll never see anything like that, I'd prefer to see a LB in for Van Bronckhorst but I'm not quite sure who Advocat could possibly bring in for him....Gosh it would be nice to have Stam wouldn't it?
     
  15. astabooty

    astabooty Member

    Nov 16, 2002
    China
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Re: Well, I'll start the lineup hopes....

    robben and bouma have been called up. look in the dutch vs skirts pregame thread. overmars will sit for robben.
     
  16. afgrijselijkheid

    Dec 29, 2002
    mokum
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Re: Re: Well, I'll start the lineup hopes....


    you are sure reading a lot into a yahoo story with no quotes... that doesn't mean overmars will sit, he and VDM were the only ones beating defenders
     
  17. astabooty

    astabooty Member

    Nov 16, 2002
    China
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    btw Travis, i like you sn. minor is my 2nd fav rb out of fsu, behind dunn :D shame he doesnt get playing time much anymore (and ever really) with the fins. he is still with them right? i havent been in the US since the start of the season,
     
  18. Belgian guy

    Belgian guy Member+

    Club Brugge
    Belgium
    Aug 19, 2002
    Belgium
    Club:
    Club Brugge KV
    They said the same about Van Gaal, Rijkaard and even Hiddink, before they impressed in WC '98. The truth is this group has always had infighting and internal troubles. And none of the coaches ever had the guts to clear the air by banning a few of the stars from the team. Regardless of the fact if they qualify for Portugal, Advocaat or whoever takes over from him, needs to change this team. Get rid of some of the older guys (De Boer, Davids, Cocu) and under-achievers (Zenden, Van Bronckhorst) and get in some young blood (Robben, De Jong, Heitinga, freakin' Opdam, who ever, just some new blood) from the Dutch league. Also, who ever takes over gives Roy Makaay a serious chance and doesn't just make him a third choice again immediatly. And who ever takes over finally realizes that Kluivert-RVN just DOESN'T work.
     
  19. MockaMooDoe

    MockaMooDoe New Member

    Feb 27, 2001

    I am an American, who loves "futbol" and I watched the game. Holland by far dominated the game, but were very unlucky to not walk away with a 3-1 victory. However, the reality is they are down 1-0 aggregate at home..

    Holland, arguably, has the best talented team in Europe, it is just a matter of coaching and playing with some enthusiastic and National pride.

    Personally, I would rather see VanNistelrooy play up top as a lone striker and have that "young" 20 year old substitute (Ajax capatain I beleive they said) play a withdrawn striker behind Ruud ---and allow him to run into space.

    Defensively, hopefully, Hollland has a quality sub for Stam----


    Good Luck -----

    PS .. I see the Scots playing for a draw--staying back and trying to score on a transition play
     
  20. Motterman

    Motterman Member

    Jul 8, 2002
    Orlando, FL
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Don't be so bitter.

    Ruud scores marvellous goals for United - even in the big competitions. Holland would be MAD not to try and get that production out of him for their team.

    If you weren't so busy slagging him off, you'd see this too.

    Kluivert sees the writing on the wall:

    He's so worried about losing his place, he's started pointing fingers at other players...
     
  21. afgrijselijkheid

    Dec 29, 2002
    mokum
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    well we have a new problem: andy van der meyde fainted during a radio interview and banged his head against some speakers - not sure how bad the knock is, but i'd say he's at least in question for wednesday
     
  22. afgrijselijkheid

    Dec 29, 2002
    mokum
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    ok now knvb says he should be fine to play and it's not as bad as they first thought
     
  23. windycity

    windycity Member

    Oct 19, 2001
    Where do you think
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    He fainted? From what? The thought of Frank de Boer alone at the back without Stam . . . THUD!
     
  24. MarcoVanBasten

    MarcoVanBasten New Member

    Apr 22, 2002
    NYC
    We need Andy but most importanly...

    Rafael "friggin" van der Vaart!! Dick should be hanged if he doesn't play him 90 mins.
     
  25. afgrijselijkheid

    Dec 29, 2002
    mokum
    Club:
    AFC Ajax

    low blood pressure from low salts, a condition he has bouts with from time to time


    somebody get him a gatorade and some pretzels!!
     

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