I believe @comme already debunked this myth that the Argentine league was strong during the relevant time period. In Arsenio Ericos highest scoring campaign 1937 the bottom two teams in the argentine Primera División conceded over 100 goals each https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1937_Argentine_Primera_División No team in the Czech league or the Národní liga (Which was the nazi equivalent )even conceded 100 goals once let alone two teams doing so in one season
Well, that's what he has in common with the greatest dribblers isn't it? He wouldn't be the dribbler he is with just amazing technique. His athleticism obviously plays a part. It's just like Messi. How much of Messi's dribbling dominance was due to his insane combination of pace, acceleration, agility, and balance?
You have the thread? I don't know much at all about the rest of the league, I just know that both Boca and River were very strong during Erico's time with Independiente.
Except Messi wasn’t a “Speed dribbler” in his prime. Bale exemplified speed dribbling which is totally different from what GOAT dribblers did. Robben due to his advanced age lacks the athleticism, but he’s still a terrific dribbler unlike guys who rely a lot on pace(Kaka for example was literally nothing without it).
He wasn’t? I wonder what happened to amazing technicians like Ronaldinho,R9 and even maradona post 1990 when they lost their pace what happened to their dribbling? It is known if you have been following Messi during his physical prime (and even before )he was the fastest player in the World with the ball at his feet. His acceleration allied with his unparalleled close control and agility is what made him a devastating dribbler Remove anyone one of those attributes and he’d still be a great dribbler but not as devastating or direct as he was especially pre 2011 Gareth Bale relies purely on his athleticism to be beat players. I think it is obvious he lacks robbens ability to be dangerous in crowded areas. To be as direct a dribbling threat as prime Messi was you HAVE to be fast.im unaware of any direct dribbling threat who wasn’t
And that’s a “Speed dribbler” IMO. I never ever stated Messi was as devastating without his renown acceleration. Gareth Bale is an archetypal speed dribbler who will eventually suck at dribbling without his Cheetah-esque pace just like Kaka did after his injury. Messi is still a GOAT tier dribbler despite losing his pace.
Kaká relied on speed to a lesser extent than bale to dribble past players Kaká was actually quite technical probably not by Brazilian standards but certainly by Most western European countries standards he was very good There are many instances of Kaká beating players with close control pre injury and post injury that I could show you An example of a goal where he wasn’t going at full pelt but was still able to dribble past multiple players. Gareth bale could never do this in a million years Even Neymar jr has yet to score dribbling goal of this quality since he’s been in Europe
Dude, I was the one who drew this line in your thread https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/best-speedster-dribbler-ever.2085091/#post-36898752 This was not the point of my post anyway. My point is, among the GOAT dribblers, those who possesses the best technique and also rely on their technique above all else, there's not a single one of them that didn't also possess athletic superiority. Someone like Ronaldo or Maradona wasn't just unstoppable because of their technique and flair. They had immense and obvious athletic advantages.
Just for info, perspective and context; 'Voetbal International' themselves (that is: the magazine of the article above) placed Ibrahimovic 31th of all-time in 2017, Nordahl 60th (an ordering not everyone agrees with) and Robben gets the benefit of doubt at 88th. Ibrahimovic is rated higher than contemporaries Xavi and Iniesta (who are there as a combo at 54th). He is rated below 7 other strikers in the list. Of course Ibra has two glaring weaknesses in his European record and his tendency to see football as a purely individual sport (well possibly both weaknesses are related to each other), and until he was 28 he had also not an universally applauded record against the other top teams within his own league (this changed after he turned 28). At the same time, for Sweden (which varied in quality, but was at no point the PSG of international football) he has a handful (literally) spectacular and significant goals against national teams featuring the likes of Casillas, Buffon, Terry etc. That saves his face quite a bit and that artistry is appreciated. Is his European record a lack of ability, application or is it something else? Does that entirely negate the dozen good/great performances (+ artistic moments) against the traditional elite national teams? Robben is likely seen as a more one-dimensional player too, less surprising in his game, but I agree with you he actually can pass the ball well (better than current top form Sterling, for example, better than most elite wingers). Or do a half-difficult cross in the build-up to the third goal against Benfica recently. We can also see examples of that here and here (but think the team was set up better for Ribery to exploit that quality + for most recipients the left foot is their weaker foot). See also post below (from another thread) with specific examples. I'd like to know too what percentage of his goals are actually that trademark 'cutting inside' move. It will be substantial, but will it be over 20% or 50%?
Yes agree (Ibra more technical too, arguably). Robben nutmegged one of the defenders when he dribbled past four players to the Benfica goal. Can pass the ball with pace, too.
Robben is a very individualistic player, that’s not to say he doesn’t have great vision (and he does) but a lot of the time holds on to the ball for just a bit too long I think when robben finally merged all positive aspects of his game together he became a totally devastating player in 2014 up to his injury in early 2015 it can be said robben is a one dimensional dribbler aswell but he was pretty damn effective to the extent that everybody knew what he was going to do when he cuts inside the right wing but nobody could stop him (with some rare exceptions like mascherano) I think it has been discussed before that even though robben predominantly played orthodox winger throughout much of his career, at his best he was more of a WF which can explain why he scored more than he assisted during his greatest seasons As for ibrahimovic being ranked 31st in history well that is a completely fallacious and erroneous claim We can cross check names that appear most in top 30 lists and see if any failed to win one champions league trophy at a bare minimum (Baggio is an exception for almost singlehandedly dragging Italy to a World Cup final and even so there are many who don’t believe he should rank as high as top 50 mainly due to his lack of silverware) Arjen Robben is the only player imo who for a brief moment threatened to challenge the best level of Cristiano ronaldo and arguably even Messi. What he did for Holland in the World Cup cannot be understated and will never be forgotten(and this is what I’m referring to by leaving an indelible mark on the game) Purely from the perspective of a football fan I will say that I had never been on the edge of my seat watching any player as I had been watching robben in that tournament. It is a miracle in itself that robben was able to drag a team to a WC SF with a 3 man defence of vlaar,martinis Indi and de Vrij. It is also worth noting Holland never Robben was his teams greatest threat in every single match even against Brazil he looked like a firecracker looking to go off at any moment (The burst of speed he used to earn that penalty vs Brazil was really crazy.i thought he would’ve gone all the way but knowing robbens style of play if he is nudged in and around the box, 9 times out of ten he's going down for the pen)
That is actually a very good point. It is not necessarily my own choice, but just to show/mention what the same magazine thought of Ibrahimovic They also included Luigi Riva (you make this comparison) and Hugo Sanchez in their top 100, so at least those aren't completely ignored. Riva is on the radar and in the orbit. It generated discussion how on earth Ibra can be ahead of the similarly talented Iniesta. Well, one of the editors reasoned: "Iniesta is a great player, we dropped him together with Xavi somewhere halfway the list, but has in most games also a trigger-happy forward line of 400 million ahead of him. Nice feints around the halfway line aren't the best case for his class." Which was when Guardiola became the team coach. Guardiola is not God but that is not a coincidence. Robben himself said: "What I can do better is looking around before I receive a ball. But for the best that is second nature, they do it automatically. I can do it too for sure, but not constantly, it distracts too much. By the way, when you talk about 'looking around before receiving'; more so than when I was in Madrid, it is here still more of a 'man against man' sport. When Heynckes was here, ourselves applied predominantly man orientated pressing." To his defense: that holding on the ball does/did attract opponents to him (often providing relatively free to very free crossing opportunities for his full-back), giving space to team-mates, and it is also not the case Alaba/Ribery on the opposite end are/were always going deep (see also Alaba's assists count compared to Lahm/Kimmich and that goes further than ball-playing ability imho). Kind of agree although in his case he was also asked to play wing-back or even 'inverted back'. Lewandowski/Gomez/Mandzukic is always supposed to go for the topscorer titles, while someone like Benzema (to a lesser extent Suarez or whoever striker is paired with Griezmann) was clearly not. In some ways, Robben has exceeded expectations. Van Persie was seen as a great talent as well and Van der Vaart was supposed to become the 'new Cruijff' (for sure more seriously so than anyone else since). Sounds absurd but was still a productive player for his position: Tonight at Netherlands v Germany, the KNVB will honour Rafael van der Vaart and Dirk Kuyt for their service to the national team. Kuyt: 104 caps, 24 goals, 19 assistsVan der Vaart: 109 caps, 25 goals, 23 assistsTwo legends in Oranje! pic.twitter.com/Co5cvwtsgv— Dutch Football 🇳🇱 (@FootballOranje_) October 13, 2018 (Opta says he had 28 assists, okay) 9 - Rafael van der Vaart was one of nine players with 10+ goals or assists in every season in a top 5 European league between 2005-06 & 2013-14. Elite. pic.twitter.com/YC35xSJtbm— OptaJohan (@OptaJohan) November 5, 2018 111 - Rafael van der Vaart recorded a goal (11) or assist (13) every 111 minutes when he played in La Liga (2008-2010). Comeback?— OptaJohan (@OptaJohan) June 11, 2015 https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/du...cation-1979-1994.1978389/page-7#post-37055268
I have a legitimate question. WE can all agree that performing skills with close control at pace is more difficult than a slow pace. So how much credit do players like Messi and Robben get for dribbling with close control at high pace??? Messi without the ball is not that fast. I mean I could list tons of players who reach a higher top speed. But how many can dribble as fast and between multiple defenders??? There are a number of player who are fast, play at the highest level but have not shown to keep such close control of the ball at high pace. i.g.- Bale, Walcott, and many, many other fast players. Messi and Robben should get a plus for that
So true. The fact is, there are so many players faster than Messi in the footballing world. Messi does not reach top speed like several other players. The fact that @carlito86 can make a statement that Messi was at one point, ''the fastest player with the ball at his feet'' is a testament to Messi's unique technique. As well as for Robben
A great credit, for sure. That is why Ronaldo Luiz was an absolute freak, and I still maintain that Ronaldo 96-98 was more or less unique. It's also why someone like Ronaldinho was so much fun to watch, more so than Henry. Henry was faster sure, but Ronaldinho had the agility of someone 15cm shorter. Having said that, there is something mesmerizing when someone like Bergkamp control the ball with almost perfect accuracy, as well.
It is a miracle how the long list of various injuries hasn't completely wrecked him - his speed or his technique (even though for sure it had negative consequences) https://www.transfermarkt.com/arjen-robben/verletzungen/spieler/4360 For sure some luck is needed, and it isn't purely someone's own merit, but he's like T-1000 of the Terminator 2 movie!
T-1000 is the most badass fictional villain in movie history EVER. PERIOD He just refused to die and kept on regenerating (one of those characters as a kid you just love to hate) That was until he was terminated by the t-800 and Sarah Connor who was also the most badass female lead I’ve probably seen (at least in Hollywood movies) It’s crazy how Arnie could be the lead character of a huge blockbuster and iconic action film and arguably be oushone by the female lead and villain Probably because he never did much speaking in his roles and was just the silent tough guy I never really rated him At least compared to sylvester stallone he seems to lack versatility in his acting roles
I actually did say that quote me correctly Arnie lacks versatility when compared to Stallone Let’s get one thing straight though neither of them can act, we are just picking the least worst option (Admittedly though for its time Rocky first blood was impressive with some good character build up...but that’s it) Heath ledgers GOAT level performance as the joker in the dark night was more impressive than the combined careers of both Arnie and Stallone to put this into some perspective
Bayern was so fun to watch from 2012-2014. One of the best teams ever at just total football and destroying the opposition and Robben was a big part of that. I've never bothered to make rankings because there are too many great players in too many different league through history but Robben was elite for a few years there.
Sadly, it increasingly seems his brace against Benfica was the last match of his career... at least at top level. The man of glass.
Still, probably shouldn't have been included in the PFA TotY in 2005 considering he only played 18 games that season, even if he did look like one of the best players in the league in those 18 games.
It's probably down to the voting system and schedule (although personally I'm not against considering players who played that much getting some recognition at the end if they truly were one of the very best players often when they played - it depends if others who played a lot more were close to the same level I suppose even though I understand how you can see it as nearly impossible to make the same cumulative contribution playing half the games). He missed a lot of games late in the season after the PFA voting was decided: http://www.bounder.friardale.co.uk/Results/2004.htm#4282 I noticed that site actually has newspaper cuttings for match reports by the way for bygone seasons (I was checking 1968/69) if anyone is interested, although it's completely off topic here (I was curious to find something about Osgood for 68/69 but even though I'd seen some footage of him playing well IMO in that season in midfield, overall it doesn't seem one of his best - again off topic except it's Chelsea related talk lol!). Slightly more on topic, but again related to research for our 'historical Ballon d'Or list' threads, it seems the Charles Buchan polls (of fans, for English and Scottish football) happened after the season was finished in those days. I guess originally the FWA Player of the Year award was awarded and decided very late too. I don't see why things have moved towards having votes before a season or calendar year has ended - it doesn't really make a lot of sense to me. Impatience maybe? Something to do with the ceremony? If so, I'd say ditch that and if the winner gets notification by live radio call when he's on holiday then fair enough! At least the whole season would be considered. He could pick up his trophy on the pitch at the start of the new season.