Historical ranking of Arjen Robben

I'm not sure whether I agree with your entire post but most of the tangible things you mention are correct. He has 11 league titles though, not 10.

To his prime also belongs ~2005 and ~2010 imho. Here is my take (also something about his left foot reliance; mostly correct, but he has also some 'big' goals with his right, such as for example against Barcelona).

I think what you say is a defensible idea. There has been some discussion about his placement and his peak form. If some were better at their peaks than you are looking at (wide definition) the peak of Gullit, Van Hanegem, Bergkamp, Sneijder, Rijkaard, Koeman, Overmars, Rensenbrink or even Van Persie.

His peak WhoScored rating was indeed very high and only really bettered by peak Messi/Ronaldo (Ronaldo does that only somewhat marginally though: 8.54 vs 8.45). 'Voetbal International' upgraded him to #3 all-time of his country, which isn't a widely shared opinion.

I'd certainly place him above Giggs and also Ribery (but tentatively not above Figo). When both were playing at the same club, and were thus directly compared, Ribery got three world class designations by kicker, Robben got eight (same number as KHR had in his entire career). Robben had consistently the greater impact in CL KO stages (2010, 2012, 2013 etc.). He just needed to be fit and recover. He has missed too many CL semi finals (2005, 2007, 2015, 2016, 2018), and how important that was is kind of shown by the semis that he could play.

 

I personally rate him very highly. If it wasn't for the fact that two all-timers are playing in the same position, he'd be no.1 in the world in his position for many years of his career.

I agree that he's above Giggs and Ribery. I'm not sure how much 'greatness' he can have considering how much football he missed due to injury. Hard to put him no.3 of Netherlands for this reason, imo. But in terms of 'best' he really is right up there.

 

I think that Arjen Robben along with Luis Suarez, is one of the few players who in his prime reached a level high enough to realistically challenge either of Messi or Ronaldo. (I think that Zlatan Ibrahimovic also had the talent to do that at certain spells of his career, but he played much of his career in a declining Italian league, so I would put prime Ibra below prime Robben and prime Suarez.)

I like Figo in his prime more than Robben in his prime, but Robben - even with all his injuries - arguably maintained his prime form for longer. Already in 2010 there were spells where Robben seemed to be hitting the same heights as in 2012 or 2013 or 2014 or 2015, etc. To be fair though, maybe that is largely the result of modern medicine and conditioning, more than it is an actual merit of Robben versus Figo, but it is a factor to consider in any case. In contrast, Figo's best years are 1999/00, 2000/01, 2002/03, and 1998/99, probably in that order.

Robben's career with Holland was definitely better than Figo's career with Portugal, in my esteem. For example, I think that Robben at World Cup 2010 was probably better in the KO stage, than he was at World Cup 2014 in the KO stage. Figo had his moments with Portugal, but he never truly replicated his Barcelona form... actually, as much as I enjoy watching Figo and as underrated as I think he is at his very best (note: not the most underrated player I have watched by any means, but still underrated), I think his career with Portugal is overrated. Overall, there is a good argument to be made that Robben just about edges Figo on the strength of his superiority at the World Cup. (Figo was probably better at the Euro, but again, Figo was not exactly a devastating player at the Euro.)

On a different note, I haven't watched enough of Ryan Giggs, but what an impressive player he was at the Champions League in 2000/01 and again in 2001/02. Probably the most consistently impressive Champions League player I have watched in the pre-2006 era.

 

I'd say (as I did before) Giggs was arguably the most consistent dribbler of his era. That is: the Giggs of around 1994 and the Giggs between 1999 and 2002.

Maybe, but it is not unthinkable Figo his WhoScored rating - with his dribblings, assists and through balls - would actually end up higher than the one of the static and quite lazy Rivaldo. Figo his GoalImpact rating is markedly higher as the one of team mate Rivaldo, signalling he was a more crucial piece in the building.

In this era we have Salah who was maybe better as Suarez in 2013-14. Salah was possibly/arguably better against the top teams in the league and of course made an impact in Europe.

What you say here is not unreasonable (and a major reason why I'd place Ribery and Giggs not at that level) but I think Figo was a wonderfully smooth and elegant footballer (Barcelona bought him quite cheap though: for 1.5m euro in 1995, when Figo was already 23 years old). Perhaps the best playmaking winger of the color television era (I can see the idea Robben at his peak had that aspect too). He is in the conversation.

With respect to the Champions League: Figo was outstanding in 1999-00. He had 5 goals and 8 assists (none of them penalties; he started to take them for Real Madrid). While they had a disappointing league season, he was a big piece behind reaching the semi finals (although FCB also reached semis in 2001, 2002, quarter in 2003 without Figo). It is arguable Figo never approached that CL peak again, but it is a peak that many legendary figures never reached at continental level.

Figo was a bit unfortunate at national team level. In 1996 he could have done better, for 1998 not qualified (thanks to scandalous refereeing), in 2002 the whole Portugal team was bad and Figo was coming off an injury. Then in 2004 he was past his best (young Robben was better) but had a good game against Netherlands in the semis. In 2006 his age was also visible.

His two best chances to impress at the World Cup was 1998 (aged 25) and 2002 (aged 29), but he was simply unfortunate.

His pinnacle was euro 2000 where he was one of the five best players of the tournament. He helped to eliminate England and Germany. That were clearly not vintage England and Germany teams, but we have seen many times technically poor German teams (with balls bouncing left and right) advancing far so it should not be dismissed too easily either. In the semis Figo ran into the best ever version of Zidane, and a contentious penalty that ended the match.


Just to clarify myself a bit.

 

i believe robben is a better player than figo, bergkamp... clearly best dutch player in the last 20 years.

 

I think Cruijff and Van Basten are out of reach. It is (again) telling how fondly Figo (in the first video, but also elsewhere) speaks about Cruijff, and the meaning for his career.

Van Basten was/is highly rated by his peers. The France Football poll among former Ballon d'Or winners placed him 8th all-time; the 2004 'Champions Magazine' poll among many managers and players (one of the best ever done of that sort imho) placed him as 6th best European player ever (this excluded Pelé/Maradona obviously, but included Di Stefano). He was the 2nd foreigner to be inducted in the Italian football hall of fame.

That might be too high, but it is a different stratosphere as Robben. The legacy is also there; he is kind of the 'model' for many later strikers, which has greatly influenced coaches (for example Capello instructing Ibrahimovic) and without the career ending injury he might have had four or five Ballon d'Ors (that is not at all a fantasy statement), and there is enough to argue his influence on Milan (their scoring dropped immediately). That said, modern and pre-modern scoring exploits and that the focus has shifted away from Serie A creates a certain vulnerability.

Then there are also very sound arguments for Gullit, Bergkamp and Rensenbrink I'd say (without considering defensive players). All of those are sometimes even put #2. Johnny Giles and Jimmy Greaves place Bergkamp #2 of his country.

6 - Players with 50+ PL strikes, but more assists than goals: Giggs, Bergkamp, Beckham, Duff, Barry, Murphy. Unselfish. #OptaJoeQuiz pic.twitter.com/PmQRCqKq02

— OptaJoe (@OptaJoe) November 8, 2016

34 - Between Aug 2001 & May 2006, Danny Murphy assisted 34 PL goals; only Henry 53, Giggs 49, Bergkamp 41 & Lampard 37 had more. Peak.

— OptaJoe (@OptaJoe) October 10, 2013

(note: Bergkamp was 32-37 years old then, and unlike the other names in the 2nd tweet he took very few set pieces - with many assists coming through the middle as well)




I've said a few things about Figo above and also think Bergkamp is potentially underappreciated here. Robben is occasionally mentioned as the best foreigner to have played in the Bundesliga, Bergkamp is sometimes mentioned as such for English football (for example Alan Hansen said this in 2009). Wenger admitted in 2005 "replacements are non-existent in the market". He remained a productive player, and kept on doing well in the indices, as well as some outstanding CL matches. In that time the fouls per game in the EPL was much higher (30-40%) as today.

He's one of the quintessential 1990s players, one of the few to be world class in both halves of the decade (possibly because so much was changing). Technically he was a wonderful player (long pass here, another one, assist here), and with 300+ career goals (with very few penalties) and a huge number of assists he also belonged among the most productive players of his generation for sure (he had 8 seasons with 10+ league assists in three different countries). He was much more a team player and assister than Roberto Baggio for instance. Bergkamp has as many/more pre-assists as assists, giving him a pretty unique statistical profile.


He became almost the only player to win the UEFA Cup with three different teams (in all of them as arguably the main piece), in three different countries, but Vieira missed his penalty. In Europe Arsenal did vastly better in home and away games when he played*). See this as confirmation (click picture to enlarge for full names).
With regards to national team, he scored 10 goals in major tournaments (0 penalties). That is more than anyone else of his country, and has 9 OPTA assists as well. In these tournaments he scored and assisted against teams as Germany, England, Brazil, Argentina, France. At euro 2000, without scoring a goal, he still ranked very well in the OPTA index.


Personally I rate him quite high and so do his team-mates (Pires, Vieira, Campbell, Henry who has said that "emotionally and rationally he feels as the best I played with"). Michael Cox, who rates Robben very high as well (#3 or #4 of his era behind Messi/Ronaldo), wrote this: "I think Bergkamp was an incredibly influential player and magnificent the seasons Arsenal won the league. Also think he tended to drift through a lot of games without really doing much and is more inconsistent than remembered. But a great highlight real."

Long story short: I would not rate him a level below Robben. When it comes to symbolic value and the meaning he had, he might even win it. I think (said this before) they are comparable.

https://www.football365.com/news/wengers-ten-premier-league-favourites-at-arsenal
https://eu.usatoday.com/story/sport...ls-best-players-under-arsene-wenger/34032263/

*)

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Daily Telegraph, March 2005

[Bergkamp] has a remarkable club record of having won half of his 36 [Champions League] matches and tasted defeat only five times, including last season's loss to Chelsea, when he played only the final nine minutes. In 32 games without him, Arsenal have lost 16 and won just 9, making one wonder whether they should have taken up more of his offers to travel by boat and train and aquaplane to some of their more distant ties. If the Milk Tray man can do it, why not the player without whom Arsenal have an obvious soft centre? Arsenal are unbeaten in the six away games he has played since their Champions League debut in 1998-99.

 

Puck

Do you have Bergkamp's assist stats in Ajax and NT?

 

Robben is a great player.. but I prefer Bergkamp - he had more technique. Robben relies a lot on his speed but his bag of tricks is not that big in comparison.

 

great post. but robben performed better at NT level. his 2010 and especially,2014 world cup.
his attack prowess,imo, also higher than bergkamp. from 2012 to 2015, robben was a force of nature

 

his dribbling abilities is amazing, greater than bergkamp

 

One of the underrated feature of Bergkamp's playmaking is the long list of player he made look good, which has to be one of the major aspects of the playmaking task itself.

33-35 year old Ian Wright had no business being as good as he was, but Bergkamp made him that good. Ian Wright had lost most of his pace (one of his defining characteristics) but of course he could still finish.

Anelka's stocks were never as high as when he played for us. Bergkamp made the whole world think the young Anelka was going to be the next big thing when he was in fact just a great athlete with good technique and a major mentality problem.

FFS, this man made Ljungberg look good!

We see all the time playmakers who couldn't play with some players, coudn't fit into some system, forced managers into certain tactics, etc. Bergkamp, at least during his time at Arsenal (never watched him at Ajax or Inter) was good with anyone in any team, for Arsenal or Netherlands.

 

@carlito86 @PDG1978 @poetgooner

It's behind a paywall but Voetbal International published this article on monday. I actually think it might overlook some important things (that he's the European with the most successful dribbles ever at the World Cup maybe merits a mention) and don't agree with everything, it can spell out some things better, but it is decent enough to share.

-------------------------------

The effective Arjen Robben



On Sunday Arjen Robben (34) announced that he will stop at Bayern Munich after this season. The list of statistics that Robben put down at the German top club is very good. The winger has had the highest return from all Bundesliga football players since his 2009 appearance. Almost no one can match the figures of Robben over the German border.

Because of his persistent injuries, it is easy to forget that Robben nevertheless belonged to the elite of world football since his move to the Bundesliga, and gave his team an extra gear in the Champions League if he was fortunate to play. His performance in the Champions League match against Benfica, which was won 5-1, is another example of this. In the thirteenth minute Robben utterly defeats the crisis mood in Bavaria with a slalom between three opponents, a short hood movement inwards and the shot with left in the top corner where he can now request copyright. Those who delve deeper into the statistics will see that Robben is not only a brilliant soloist, but also a highly effective team player.

Robben's egoistic image gains nuance when it is placed next to the bare figures. Since his debut at Bayern, Robben has created an average of 2.50 chances per ninety minutes. That is more than Lionel Messi, Cristiano Ronaldo, Zlatan Ibrahimovic, Luis Suarez, Gareth Bale and others. The many opportunities created by Robben logically also translate to assists. Of that he gave over 100 in all competitions.

Over all his time at Bayern, Robben excels in five categories: goals, assists, goal attempts, created opportunities and successful dribbles. Until recently, no player could match him on the whole of these qualities. In the last two seasons the age of Robben only takes his toll: his dribble decreases as a weapon of strength.



The fact that Robben can no longer ignore opponents on explosiveness makes it better that his return has remained high. Despite the weak form of Bayern, the left leg from Bedum - Bundesliga and CL is added together - hits again this season every 120 minutes. If we add up the goals and assists over the entire German period, it turns out how good Robben is. He is directly involved in a goal every 92 minutes. That is more often than any other player who was active with him in the Bundesliga at the same time.



Even when the other top competitions are also taken into account, Robben's performance remains of the outside category. Only the return of Lionel Messi, Cristiano Ronaldo, Kylian Mbappé, Zlatan Ibrahimovic, Luis Suarez and Neymar is higher than that of the Dutch wing flash. It is also striking that the artistic Robin van Persie can be found in the top ten, which shows that the insignificant Netherlands has produced two of the best attackers in Robben's generation.


(N.B. Harry Kane is on a goal and assist every 103 minutes, 131 in 13464)

Although Robben is also successful as a provider, he has mainly established a reputation as a goal-scorer in Germany. Every 142 minutes Robben is good for a hit. With that he narrowly ends behind Roy Makaay (139 minutes per goal), to whom he even had a head start two years ago. Only ten top strikers score even more than Robben, the first in the list below who is not a striker. That he approaches numbers of a classic number 9 from the wing is very good.



Furthermore, Arjen Robben is of all players in history with at least 119 duels in the Bundesliga the player with by far the highest winning percentage. In 76 percent of the games in which he came within the lines, Bayern Munich won as the winner of the field. When we take one hundred as a marker, Javi Martinez (83% of the 117) and Thiago (80% of the 106) are currently ahead of him.



It is not that Robben only puts down such figures because he played in the best team of the Bundesliga. Robben makes Bayern demonstrably better when he starts a match. When the Man of Glass takes part in a match, Bayern scores and wins more often than when he is not present between the lines. He provided his team an extra level in the Champions League and the highest scorelines in the treble winning season were reached with him in the team.

As Dutch football fan, it is advisable to not take Arjen Robben for granted, even if he doesn't entirely fit in the Ajax ideal type. Maybe it will take ten to fifteen years before another attacker of this class arises in the Netherlands.

Data via Opta Sports

 

In my top 150 I considered Robben in the place 148 of all time.

 

I'm not sure if Robben should be in the top 10 of wingers, I mean, I think Tom Finney, Zoltan Czibor, Kurt Hamrin and Julinho are players with an equal status.

On the other hand, I have Zlatan as the No. 10 best striker of all time.. He has been too underrated but he is one of the most consistent and regular players of this century, also reaching very good peaks.

 

1. Ronaldo
2. Eusébio
3. Gerd Muller/Marco van Basten
4. Gerd Muller/Marco van Basten
5. Romario
6. Sandor Kocsis
7. Uwe Seeler
8. Thierry Henry
9. Arsenio Erico
10. Josef Bican
11. Zlatan Ibrahimovic
12. Dixie Dean
13....

 

On this point, Bican played in a very noncompetitive league due to WWII.

S. American leagues, particularly Argentina, could be considered the most competitive at the time due simply to this fact. Erico was scoring goals in what many consider to be one of the most competitive leagues at the time, unlike Bican. He had to face the La Maquina River Plate, for example.

 

There’s a common misconception that Robben is a speed dribbler like Bale. He’s a terrific dribbler IMO. Bergkamp is the better technical player and more entertaining to watch.

 

Ibrahimovic was surprisingly a good dribbler at his peak despite his physique.