Historic World Wide Balon d'Or 23 player short lists

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by Tom Stevens, Jan 8, 2016.

  1. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    I think in summary of my views, I'd say that although I won't offer a new list with my own new idea for a top 3 or something, that when it comes to opinion about Peru's top 3 or a consensus top 3, I'd not see any reason to feel Raul in for Suker would not be a reasonable and satisfactory choice.

    I could go along with him rather than a Zidane or Bergkamp I think too, even if I feel like on their best days they probably surpassed his level of performance/influence. For his continuous contribution to the Spanish league title, and being able to switch roles well in support of Mijatovic/Suker, plus some particularly nice goals occasionally like away at Atletico, he'd make sense as a choice I think.

    Personally as I said before I wouldn't drop Zola, but I know I'm always a bit more inclined to be impressed and persuaded by great attacking skills and verve than the play of defenders (even if Roberto Carlos was an attacking left back, or wing back as I think he sometimes was this season too, in one formation in which Raul would be central behind the strikers; to be fair to Roberto Carlos too that Tournoi free-kick was certainly not the only swerved goal he scored that way evidently in 96/97 as he got more for Real Madrid even if not from so far out, plus as well as goals/assists he did provide tenacious defensive play with sharp tackles etc as shown in that Madrid-Barca game actually even though I only scored him 6.5 at first glance and at least wouldn't go a lot higher, and even though Figo and Luis Enrique still went past him at times).

    For my own choice of 23 I'm pretty certain I wouldn't be leaving Figo out to be honest (especially when factoring in Copa Del Rey and CWC performances including what is visible on YouTube for him, plus Intl games) and I feel inclined to think I'd include Redondo too. But of course Peru already saw my ideas before, and at this moment we are not tallying votes (and maybe it's doubtful we'll get round to 96/97 with that method as things stand since we have stalled in 69/70 seemingly).
     
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  2. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    I certainly don't rule Bergkamp out as a top 3 choice anyway, just to clarify.

    DBS Calcio shows very good ratings for him anyway, but as another source here is a post I made in another thread after I found an old copy of Shoot! magazine:
    I think it's true that Wright had a good season, but also that he benefitted a lot from Bergkamp's play, directly (in terms of assisted goals) and indirectly (because of the increased fluency developing in Arsenal's game due to the Dutchman).
     
  3. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    It's strange to make some of the comparisons though.

    I could feel like stating something like "if Luis Enrique was actually playing better, in general or in terms of peak performance, than Brian Laudrup that season, I'll eat my hat!" lol. But then when we look at ESM inclusions....Luis Enrique (although not strictly for playing as midfielder/winger but sometimes full-back too) has several from many votes. Laudrup has none and one vote!

    I guess it comes down to which league a player plays in a lot of the time.

    Laudrup is ultimately (including by Pele with the FIFA 100, although not sure how much of he saw of him in 96/97 in Scotland!) remembered as the better and more talented player, and that's not a knock on Luis Enrique. But maybe Scotland just doesn't count for a season like this. Laudrup did do better internationally too though in WC qualifying.
     
  4. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Actually, I remembered Luis Enrique was also in that FIFA 100 lol! Although as one of 50 currently active players, as opposed to Brian Laudrup as one of 75 retired but alive players.
     
  5. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member+

    Sep 17, 2009
    Club:
    FC Kryvbas Kryvyi Rih
    As requested:
    upload_2019-7-8_16-59-58.png
     
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  6. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Thanks. So yeah, Hierro (who got a standing ovation) and Victor (who was getting praised by commentators I think near the end of the game) did get the stand-out Real Madrid ratings that game.

    I didn't score Victor 2nd for RM myself, but wouldn't be far away from it and see how he could be rewarded like that certainly. Some of the ones scoring 2 would be getting higher marks (out of 10) than others from me (Redondo and Suker among the higher ones) but that's inevitable and it doesn't mean obviously that the same ones would get the higher marks from this source if they used 1-10 too necessarily. Maybe it does show that the scale does limit being able to separate out players from each other though - it's more of a 'great, good, or not so good' verdict on every player I suppose but that is obviously Spanish tradition. For the majority of time I suppose Italian ratings do have quite a narrow window too really - between 5 and 8 (but using half marks too) usually it seems.
     
  7. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    That was a comment mainly about the Marca grades for the home game against Barcelona in La Liga.

    Mundo and ABC do use an extra mark, but yeah it's similar with them, but Roberto Carlos and Raul (against the trend for the season) are held back at 2 and those players I mentioned for example do get notched up to 3, with Hierro and Victor still ahead. So the consensus isn't too far off how I saw it really it seems for that game, so feasibly that game was among the better displays of Suker, Redondo and not among the best of Roberto Carlos, Raul.
     
  8. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    It's not an ideal way to get it but actually for that game (Real Madrid vs Barca December 1996), marks out of 10 can be obtained by adding together the Marca/Mundo/ABC grades of course!

    So this is how that'd work out, with their consensus/cumulative score out of 10, and my own score if I was only using full marks and erring on the side of generosity (after having reflected a bit on my initial verdicts and even looked a bit more at the first half of the game again - not overnight but after I made my original scores on the 'best games of best players' thread) - my score in brackets:
    Illgner 6 (7); Secretario 3 (6), Alkorta 7 (6), Hierro 10 (9), R.Carlos 6 (7); Victor 10 (8), Seedorf 8 (7), Redondo 8 (8), Raul 6 (7); Mijatovic 8 (7), Suker 8 (8), Amavisca 4 (6)

    So not very different, and actually after the conversion suddenly their difference between top and bottom grades would be more and quite extreme! I would have been leaning towards Seedorf over Raul, Roberto Carlos, Illgner for example too (the latter I nearly went with a 6 anyway) if not using full marks, and I can see in terms of involvement in the game how Alkorta came out ahead of Secretario and the sub Amavisca also.
     
  9. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Doing similar for the other league game, but comparing to Don Ballon grades (in brackets). Obviously I am rounding down to a 10 if necessary as before.

    Illgner 7 (7); Panucci 5 (6), Alkorta 3 (6), Hierro 10 (7), Roberto Carlos 5 (6); Victor 5 (6), Seedorf 4 (7), Redondo 4 (6), Raul 3 (6); Mijatovic 5 (5), Suker 3 (5), Amavisca 3 (5), Ze Roberto 2 (5)


    And I thought it'd be interesting to convert Marca/Mundo/ABC grades, awarding a maximum of 10 again for each game, on the same basis for all the Classico fixtures and get a seasonal average for them (the biggest game of the season, but of course only a very small percentage of all games):
    Illgner - 5.25
    Secretario - 2.5
    Panucci - 4.67
    Alkorta - 5.75
    Hierro - 8.75 (containing two maximums, plus another score of 10 even though not rounded down - I'm not sure this is a perfect way to do it but I didn't want to go over 10 out of 10 obviously)
    Roberto Carlos - 5.5
    Victor - 5.25
    Seedorf - 5.5
    Redondo - 6.25
    Amavisca - 3.75 (of course sub appearances don't tend to get high scores generally)
    Raul - 4.25
    Mijatovic - 4.75
    Suker - 5.75

    It's safe to say those scores reflect that the first league game was really the good one for Real Madrid against Barcelona that season!
     
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  10. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Quite astonishingly Luis Enrique was voted Barcelona player of the season in 1996/97 ahead of R9(source-footballs greatest)
    Also here El pais Spanish player of the season
    http://www.rsssf.com/miscellaneous/spanpoy.html
     
  11. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member+

    Sep 17, 2009
    Club:
    FC Kryvbas Kryvyi Rih
    FYI Marca and Mundo give out 4 and 5 points respectively in very rare occasions to performances that would probably translate to a 9 or 10 in Italian magazines.

    A game recieving the usual max rating from both Marca and Mundo is about a 7.5 - 8 on average in Italian magazines. Probably 7.5 for defenders.
     
  12. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    I didn't know anything about the Barcelona Player of the Season and that'd be interesting to get details about for sure, but yeah he was El Pais Spanish Player of the Year in 1997/98 (not 1996/97 - Raul and Hierro shared it that time).
     
  13. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Ok, apologies - my conversions don't make any sense then really lol!

    I think I had seen some old ratings, maybe provided by msioux, that were on a 1-3 or 0-3 scale (though I can't be sure about them exactly off the top of my head) and then I assumed those Marca ratings were made on the same basis. What actually happens then I suppose though is that they freely hand out pretty low ratings lol quite often! Because a scale with 5 at the top is not so far away from France Football's scale of 1-6 (with 0 for deserved straight red card for violent play etc I believe) and they don't normally rate players with a 1 or even 2.

    I also assumed Marca's maximum score was lower than Mundo's but that's because it looked like it - they seem more reluctant to hand those grades out then unless that was not a representative sample (but Marca is pro-Real Madrid I think isn't it?).
     
  14. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    In effect though that info does mean there is some sort of parallel between the top ratings from Italian publications and Spanish ones. But in Spain more low grades must get handed out - if a player doesn't 'earn' more - I suppose it must be seen as the base level everyone starts at or something like that.
     
  15. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member+

    Sep 17, 2009
    Club:
    FC Kryvbas Kryvyi Rih
    yeah it isn't completely random.... there's always a large overlap in how players are viewed/how allstar XI look like in different country, right?

    I'm not sure what you mean here. The average of all players in the league is pretty close to 1.00, I have seen it mentioned in a Marca yearbook.
     
  16. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Yeah, that's what I meant really - it's common for the lower grades to be given to performances in Spain (although they can hand out 0 too can't they and do that less surely). While in Italy the normal grades are in the middle of the scale and up from that a bit (5, 5.5, 6, 6.5, 7, 7.5).
     
  17. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    I think I confused you on that one. I was meaning, like you suggested before, that the level of ratings at the top end are quite similar (just using a different scale) between Italian ratings (for Italian football) and Spanish ratings (for Spanish football) - quite a lot of 8s (or 3s in Spain) but not many 9s (or 5s in Spain).

    So yeah I wasn't looking at ratings by Italians of Spanish league games or anything like that. But yes there will often be overlap that helps pinpoint star performers, when multiple sources are looked into (although of course often a few differences too, and in some games some significant ones).
     
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  18. wm442433

    wm442433 Member+

    Sep 19, 2014
    Club:
    FC Nantes
    Indeed this one was very peculiar. In a video that I watched recently, he explains this goal and the interesting detail that I had no clue about before, for my part (or forgot about), is that the wind penetrated the stadium from its right corner (if we're behind the ball like Roberto Carlos) and he played with that. It was his ally to make the ball to go back in direction of the nets and not way off the post as it looks like at half-trajectory of the shoot. That's what he tells and this explains that incredible trajectory with yes, that sudden changing of course at the last moment. Well done, well calculated and executed (!) but if ever it could happen, it could happen only once indeed, for this reason. Then, we know that he could give incredible curves to his shots but that way it was non reproducible. It remains a totally unique goal to this day in history of football of course.

    Then, I don't know if the wind played a role in the Nelinho's goal but it is not from the same position, it is in motion, and it was supposed to be a cross anyway (scoring like this is not that rare).
     
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  19. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Yes, maybe he thinks like a golf player in that moment then and 'uses the wind'!

    I always thought Nelinho's goal was intentional to be honest (it doesn't seem like somebody is there to cross it to and he doesn't seem to miss-hit the ball). He was also known to be somebody who could curve the ball like that I think wasn't he?

    But yes the Roberto Carlos goal remains unique probably still now doesn't it....
     
  20. wm442433

    wm442433 Member+

    Sep 19, 2014
    Club:
    FC Nantes
    Hum, yeah...yes... Nelinho says that he wanted to cross the ball then changed his mind when he saw the keeper anticipating. And when he is still asked about this (very often) he gives the argument that if it was supposed to be a cross, he would have used the instep. So the doubts are still permitted:D

    Florian Maurice : "proud for I have been part of the wall".
     
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  21. Perú FC

    Perú FC Member+

    Nov 16, 2007
    Lima, Perú
    I had as very likely possibilities to Alfonso and Figo, but I really believe that Redondo presents the best case (or at least in my perception) with consistent performances and pretty great episodes in the control of Real Madrid midfield.

    It seems to me that Figo slightly pushed his case due to the Copa del Rey final.
     
  22. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #1772 carlito86, Jul 20, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2019
    @Perú FC

    Hagi scored 6 goals+5 assists in 9 games as a deep lying creative forward in the 88/89 European cup.
    Within the context of that time it was a legendary level return

    Some of the wizardry he displayed was Maradona 79-82 esque in quality

    (legendary assist for balint against iek gothenburg at 6:02)

    Also a great dribbling run assist in the semi final rout against galatasary

    3:20

    I realised after a check he wasn't voted romanian player of the year in 89
    a bit strange considering it was the most prolific season in his career (in league and EC)

    Hagi was a ballon dor podium player here no doubt about it (he did for steaua in 89 what Maradona could never do in the European cup for Barcelona or napoli)
     
  23. Perú FC

    Perú FC Member+

    Nov 16, 2007
    Lima, Perú
    #1773 Perú FC, Aug 12, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2019
    I probably agree closely, but for this exercise I don't think it was so easy to get on a podium fought by Marco van Basten, Lothar Matthäus and Diego Maradona.

    In the 1989 list Tom Stevens chose Bebeto and Rubén Sosa as 4th and 5th, who also showed very good skills, but those who surely had important bonuses for their Copa América performances.

    Bebeto had a fairly round case in general terms having won the Brasileirão and apparently being considered by the most as the best player of the tournament (although on the averages of Placar they rewarded Ricardo Rocha with the Bola de Ouro and didn't appear in the Bola de Prata team, but the magazine ended up crowning him as Craque do Ano in its general review), won the mention as Jugador do Ano do Vasco, won the Copa América and ended up a stellar player with 6 goals in 6 games (forming that great duo that he would then repeat with Romário) and finally, at the end of the year, chosen by El País as the best player in South America.

    I'm not so sure about a round case about Rubén Sosa, especially for his first season with Lazio finishing 10th in Serie A, eliminated in the quarterfinals of Coppa Italia and without any very special mention about him that I know. I suppose his case relies much more on his excellent level in the Copa América (selected as the best player of the tournament), especially for his match against Argentina:


    In any case, in terms of raw skills, I get the impression that Gheorghe Hagi was about over these last 2 at that time and a huge productivity. I also have no idea why Gheorghe Popescu and Ioan Sabău ended up ahead of him in the Gazeta Sporturilor's Romanian Footballer of the Year award (although I don't know about his performances in the Romanian League, just deducing it base on numbers).
     
  24. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    It was in the second phase match which he played well vs Argentina. In that highlights match he made little impact and Argentina won 1-0 in the first round group stages.
     
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  25. Perú FC

    Perú FC Member+

    Nov 16, 2007
    Lima, Perú
    My mistake. This should be the match:

     

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