Higuain's "goal": everything that's wrong with the offside rule...

Discussion in 'World Cup 2014: Refereeing' started by mfw13, Jul 13, 2014.

  1. mfw13

    mfw13 Member+

    Jul 19, 2003
    Seattle
    Club:
    Newcastle United FC
    Even though it was the correct call, I was quite disheartened to see Higuain's "goal" disallowed.

    #1 - it was the culmination of a beautiful flowing play, the kind of soccer that the rules should be encouraging

    #2 - the advantage Higuain gained from being offside was entirely "fair", in that it was gained because he was simply faster than the defender and outran him coming upfield. Once the defender realizes he's beat, he slows down so as to play Higuain offside.

    So in essence it penalized the attacker for playing well and rewarded the defender for playing poorly.

    And that's why I hate the offside rule...it gives defenders too much power to dictate what the attackers can and cannot do, penalizes good attacking play, and bails out lousy defending.

    Another example would be goal-mouth scramble after the Howedes header off the post at the end of the first half. As soon as the ball is struck by whomever is taking the corner, the defenders run forward, and when the ball ricochets back off the post and is played by a German, the flag immediately goes up. Argentina is rewarded for defending poorly (i.e. allowing Howedes a free header), whereas the attacking German player is penalized for being in a good position.

    Thoughts?
     
  2. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    This has to he dumbest and most ridiculous thing I've ever seen on this forum and I've said some crazy things.

    Mods, please delete/shut down this thread.
     
  3. grasskamper

    grasskamper Member

    Feb 22, 2010
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Good grief. While we are at the task of changing the laws of the game to encourage more scoring, I suggest adding the ability for the forward in an offside position the use of a hand to control the crossed ball but only if his other hand is tied behind his back.
     
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  4. mfw13

    mfw13 Member+

    Jul 19, 2003
    Seattle
    Club:
    Newcastle United FC
    So, on a DISCUSSSION FORUM...you want the mods to shut down a thread simply because YOU think it's stupid?

    The whole point of my post is to stimulate discussion about whether the 100+ year old offside rules might need some modifying given that the way the game is played today is far different than the way the game was played when they were originally written.

    Or is that an inappropriate topic for a refereeing forum...
     
  5. Cliveworshipper

    Cliveworshipper Member+

    Dec 3, 2006
    #5 Cliveworshipper, Jul 14, 2014
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2014
    Well there is no 100+ year old offside rule. It has been modified several times. It was originally any player ahead of the ball.

    Then it became a certain number of opponents. From "more than three" to " at least three" until now. We have come a long way since:
    Just think, we could be talking about whether loitering was careless or reckless.


    (Interesting we are back to "he may not touch it". Seems we have come full circle.)


    That has been whittled down over time until it is now the second to last defender. That process wasn't complete until 1925, only five years before the first World Cup.

    The 1973 Scottish League Cup final was played under rules where offside was only called in the last 18 yards. That experiment lasted two years and was sheepishly dropped, never to be spoken about again.

    In 1988 the football conference tried declaring no offsides off a free kick. That was also taken out back and disposed of with a silver bullet. It resulted in a team packing all their players around the keeper so he couldn't move.


    In 1990 even became on, which is universally ignored by refs as far as I can see, since they can't even get off is off right half the time.

    So your suggestion isn't actually all that far off the stupid things already tried, although under the Scottish rules, Higuaín would still have been off.

    But why stop there?


    I think we should give seven points for goals from outside the arc, two points other goals in the run in play, and one point for a goal off a corner. Then no Americans could bitch about low scoring games.

    The death penalty for diving should be examined. A new rule there would certainly stop that nonsense. I liked that they used to call PK's "the kick of death". This might be a new application for it.

    And the no hands rule is stupid. We were born with hands, why can't we use them! At least that way it would look like real football. ( most attackers seem to get away with it anyway) come to think of it, I'm not convinced Neuer didn't forge new ground there with that punch outside the box.

    At the very least we should allow the keeper to handle the ball anywhere until he is tackled like they used to allow. ( I am not making this up) Bo Jackson would have been a great keeper.

    And we see the head injuries in this cup, why aren't these guys wearing helmets and shoulder pads, are they stoopid?


    Discuss.
     
  6. sjquakes08

    sjquakes08 Member+

    Jun 16, 2007
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    While I agree that people shouldn't be biting your head off here, because that's just generally dickish behavior and I don't know why people are so high strung, I think your opinion is going to be very unpopular here.

    Offside is a fundamental part of the game, like not being able to use your hands, or trip opponents, or dribble the ball behind the goal. It makes the game more challenging. You say this call penalizes the attacker for playing well, but that's not true at all. He's not playing well. He's running quickly, yes, but a soccer game is not a track-and-field competition; to play well would be to stay in an onside position and make his run from there. I mean really, this wasn't even a close decision. It was a major mistake from Higuain to not be aware of where he was relative to the defenders, and it cost him the goal.

    Maybe some people think soccer would be better if players could use their hands. Maybe it would be better if the wall at free kicks needed to be set 20 yards back. Maybe it would be better if you could tackle players, like in American football.

    But it wouldn't be soccer anymore.
     
  7. TyffaneeSue

    TyffaneeSue moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 15, 2003
    Upstairs
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    The game would definitely have a different kind of vibe if we just eliminated goalkeepers altogether, in which case there would be no Neuer incident to debate.
     
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  8. mfw13

    mfw13 Member+

    Jul 19, 2003
    Seattle
    Club:
    Newcastle United FC
    I guess my point is this....which do you enjoying watching more:

    Beautiful passing plays resulting in scoring chances?

    OR

    Beautiful passing plays being called offsides because a defender stepped up at the last moment and played the attacker offsides?

    The whole point of the offsides rule when it was originally written was to protect defenders. These days I would argue that it gives defenders too much protection in that it allows defenders to dictate the play too much through use of the offside trap. In many cases the player being called offside is only a foot or two behind the last defender (if that), has gained no advantage by being offside, and in fact is only offside because the defender has stepped up for the specific purpose of causing the attacker to be offside.

    Thirty years ago there had to be daylight between the attacker and the defender for offsides to be called...nowadays having the longer nose or bigger butt will get you flagged.

    Most people will probably disagree with me, but I think that the way things are today, the offside rules as currently implemented and interpreted unnecessarily detracts from the beauty of the game while providing defenders with more protection than they actually need.
     
  9. LastBoyscout

    LastBoyscout Member+

    Mar 6, 2013
    While removing the offside law would certainly lead to more goals it also would completely change the way this game had to be played. Deploying a high defensive line which many possession based attacking teams do would no longer be possible because it would just be suicide. Defenders always have to stay deep to protect against long balls I actually think it would lead to less beautiful attacking plays because you would need more defensive players to stay back to cover for now offside runs of a few attacking players.
     
  10. mfw13

    mfw13 Member+

    Jul 19, 2003
    Seattle
    Club:
    Newcastle United FC
    I'm not necessarily advocating removing the offside law, just modifying it somehow. Maybe having a offside line instead (such as in ice hockey) might be worth investigating. And changing the way the game is played a bit might turn out to be a good thing.

    And if defenders are forced to stay back, in theory that might open up more space in midfield, since high defensive lines tend to lead to clogged midfields.

    Who knows...I just think its something worth discussing. I don't have an answer, just a reasonable question....
     
  11. jaycrewz

    jaycrewz Member

    Jun 27, 2014
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Terrible thread. The offside rule is PERFECT the way it is. Its there to get rid of unfair offensive advantages and cherry picking while camping the opponents goal. No changes need to be made. Bad suggestions made in the original post. Offside is, and always should be, a hard and fast rule.

    Without offside, or using a terribly modified 70s Scottish offside rule, you eliminate midfield play and basically have long balls blasted near both penalty areas all game because of goal campers. The offside rule forces ALL players to become involved in flowing play and not camp on goal.

    Next OP is gonna say there shouldnt be offside in hockey or the NFL. Can you imagine how terrible thatd look?
     
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  12. Arsenal_NGA

    Arsenal_NGA Member+

    Jan 12, 2014
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Did the OP read Soccer for Dummies before he opened this thread?
     
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  13. jaycrewz

    jaycrewz Member

    Jun 27, 2014
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    I enjoy watching beautiful passing plays that tear up a poorly planned offside trap.

    You seem to not understand the fundamentals of football play. Without offside or with a modification of the current rule, there would be NO beautiful passing whatsoever. It would simply be camping near goal on both sides of the field and blasting long balls all day. Like I said, there would be NO midfield play.
     
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  14. jaycrewz

    jaycrewz Member

    Jun 27, 2014
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #14 jaycrewz, Jul 14, 2014
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2014
    Players would simply camp the offside line.

    And there does exist an offside line of sorts in soccer. Its call the halfway line. And theres a reason defenders stay near it. Because the offside rule doesnt apply in your own half. Now imagine if there was an offside line in both ends of the field. Now you simply have defenders who are NEVER involved in the attack because they are guarding against cherry picking strikers.

    The reason hockey can use a offside line is BECAUSE THE FIELD IS SMALL! Ever checked out indoor soccer? Soccer on much smaller fields either have no offside rule or they simply use offside lines like hockey. When you play on large fields you need an offside rule because thats what works the best. Hockey and small field soccer can use an offside line because the field is small enough so that teams can defend their zone while also still being involved in the offense.

    Large fields simply dont work with offside lines....because it forces players to defend it constantly, and youll simply have camping attackers. Imagine hockey on a larger field. Offside lines wouldnt work because youd always have defenders away from the attack...because they are worried about opponents camped near the offside line. Sports with smaller play areas use offside lines because the playing area is small enough where defenders can guard their side of the field but also be involved in the overall flow of the game.
     
  15. pedr

    pedr Member

    Jul 9, 2006
    A game designer I follow on Twitter has been thinking about soccer's rules from the point of view of someone who doesn't usually watch the game. Offside was one of his big questions (penalty shootouts the other). It may be worth looking at alternative ways to achieve the same result - the offside law is, after all, difficult to adjudicate (it has, effectively, two dedicated officials per match whose positioning is determined by the offside rule, and despite that mistakes are made even by in-position officials) and might cause some undesired tactics, such as the high offside line.

    One possibility which doesn't entirely remedy those negatives would be to encode a strong presumption that everyone is onside, perhaps together with moving towards "any part of body in line is onside". ARs could then look for daylight and administrators could rule that only clear and obvious offside should be called, making it dangerous to employ an offside trap (as the attacker could be almost beyond you but still onside) without enabling the goal hanging that abolishing the rule would bring.
     
  16. jaycrewz

    jaycrewz Member

    Jun 27, 2014
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    One more thing. OP think of the offside rule in the same way you think of the 3-second rule in basketball. Imagine if basketball didnt evolve and players simply were allowed to camp under the hoop all day for easy buckets? Rules to prevent camping spread the field of play and make the game more skillful and exciting.

    Basketball without the 3 second rule, turns into a camp fest, with less exciting 3 point shots. You simply would dump the ball down to the power forward or center like in the old days. Same with soccer. No offsides, or a modified rule with lines, and you get boom-ball all day. Basically long plays blasted all over the park.

    Both are boring.
     
  17. mfw13

    mfw13 Member+

    Jul 19, 2003
    Seattle
    Club:
    Newcastle United FC
    I understand the fundamentals of football play just fine, as I've been playing the game for over thirty years.

    I'd argue that you are a little bit too sure of yourself if you think you know exactly how the game would be played were the offside rule modified or eliminated. The truth is, we have no idea, since it has never been tried. If there's one theme running through the history of football, its that coaches and players often adapt to new circumstances quite unpredictably.

    You seem to think that I'm arguing for the elimination of offside. I'm not!

    I'm just trying to get people to think semi-intelligently about the question of whether or not the offside rule, as currently written and implemented, is the best way to accomplish the goal of preventing goal-hanging (which I think most would agree was the original intent of the rule).

    Because I don't think that ruling a play illegal because the attacking player is half a step behind the defender when the ball is passed, or because the attacker begins his run a millisecond too early, or because the defender intentionally steps up to play the attacker offside, has anything to do with preventing goal-hanging.

    I don't know what the answer is, but there's gotta be a better way to fulfill the original intent of the offside rule than what we've got now.
     
  18. jaycrewz

    jaycrewz Member

    Jun 27, 2014
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #18 jaycrewz, Jul 14, 2014
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2014
    Never been tried?

    Do your homework. Back in the 70s the NASL tried blue hockey type offside lines at the 35 yard markers. There have been other experiments over the years...and everyone always goes back to the offside rules that have been around for almost 100 years.

    It basically led to booming passes, and defenders camped near their blue line unable to join the attack. The halfway line is the perfect offside line. Its close enough to allow both the offense and defense to be involved in the flow of play all the time.

    And who cares how much a play is offside. Whether its inches, a foot, or yards offside...OFFSIDE IS OFFSIDE. You arguing about inches is like whining about offside in the NFL. "Well the linebacker was only an arm's length into the neutral zone at the snap". Thats no good excuse. Offside is offside and you shouldnt be allowed an unfair jump on the QB.

    Similarly in basketball "Well his foot was only a half inch onto the 3pt line...so because of the skill of the shot and the rest of his body being behind the line...lets give him the whole 3 pts instead of 2." Do you realize how ridiculous that sounds? Thats exactly like the arguments youre making for player caught marginally offside.

    It DOESNT matter. You break the barrier set by the rules of the game, and deal with the consequences. Doesnt matter if that barrier is offsides, out of bound lines, 3 point lines, or goal lines. Barrier rules SHOULD be cut and dry. Theres already enough review going on in sports regarding all these different lines. Imagine if now people have to measure how far in front or behind the line a person was. What a waste of time, and what an impossible thing to have to sit and do all the time.

    So its much better to simply state...you pass the line, you broke the rule...you lose possession or get an infraction. Simple. The original intent of the rule has been fulfilled. Play in soccer is more flowing, structured, and skillful.
     
  19. mfw13

    mfw13 Member+

    Jul 19, 2003
    Seattle
    Club:
    Newcastle United FC
    Seriously? You think the rule is PERFECT??? The rule that often is impossible to call correctly since AR's can't look in two places at once. The one that has attackers being ruled offside if their nose is sticking out one inch longer than the defenders. The once that incentivizes defenders to blindly rush forward en masse after clearing a corner kick so that any attempt by the offense to play the ball back into the box will be offside.

    Please explain how calling someone offside for being half a step behind their defender or starting their run a millisecond has anything to do with preventing cherry-picking, let alone how that definitive constitutes an "unfair" advantage.
     
  20. waitforit

    waitforit Member+

    Dec 3, 2010
    Valcea
    Club:
    FC Steaua Bucuresti
    Nat'l Team:
    Romania
    #20 waitforit, Jul 14, 2014
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2014
    Because it's not about that. With no ofside rule an attacking player would stay near the opponents 16m. Them the GK would throw the ball to him and goal. Because of that the defenders won't get out of their own half. Offside is the sole reason why defenders advance near the half line becuase they know that the attacker will be near them all the time
    With no offside the defenders will stay near their own 16 to be near the opposing attackers. In that case the game basicaly becomes foosball with stretched lines and no one will want to advance

    Offside encourages attacking play. People that are saying that more goals would be scored without are missing the big picture
     
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  21. jaycrewz

    jaycrewz Member

    Jun 27, 2014
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    All sports are subject to error.

    Next youll tell me that ESPN type camera's should call balls and strikes....or that computers should mark the ball spot in the NFL. Its impossible to mark the ball in the NFL to the exact right spot on every play...which is why they only review on challenges and goal scoring plays.

    AR's in soccer have just as much trouble pinpointing things as umpires in baseball. Offside is gotten correct most of the time. For you to be whining about the rule when Higuain was correctly called offside makes no sense to me. He should know how to play to the rules. Hes a millionaire professional.

    You need to read the offside rule and understand it. Higuain wasnt a nose offside...and there are specifics about which part of the body will be ruled offside.

    [​IMG]

    This is what makes you question the offside rule? Look how offside he is! You serious bro?

    And why shouldnt the defense be allowed to move up the field in order to defend their goal from campers? How is that any different from basketball players playing a zone defense to take away 3 pointers? You clearly dont seem to understand fair-play rules in sports.
     
  22. colman1860

    colman1860 Member

    Nov 13, 2012
    London, England
    I also disagree with OP's idea, but he's come in here politely to discuss his idea for a law change. Maybe chill a little, people?
     
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  23. El Rayo Californiano

    Feb 3, 2014
    Jonathan Wilson's 2010 article on the subject is worth a look.
     
  24. NHRef

    NHRef Member+

    Apr 7, 2004
    Southern NH
    I agree with those asking for people to not jump down the OP throat, however I also disagree with the base assumptions he makes:

    - How do you know the attacker was faster? A good defender that notices an attacker running stride for stride, simply slows down a bit.

    - Attackers work at the skill of staying on side, he failed

    So your base assumption of essentially penalized for being "better" is off.

    As for the basics of offside, people often suggest changing the definition to any body part onside (it's now off), daylight etc. The issue here is in all these idea's there's a "line", that line is judged by the AR who is assumed to be in the right spot, DEAD EVEN with that line. ARs train constantly to keep this position. Any time you have any "line" there's the perception issue of being just off where you should be.

    is offside today perfect? Nope, but I've not seen any suggestion better.
     
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  25. Rufusabc

    Rufusabc Member+

    May 27, 2004
    Gosh.....no defenders on here? It is extremely difficult to play the back line in footy. It's a synchronized effort with 4 players in tune. One out of tune and there's on on side play with a breakaway. The defenders are just as skilled as the attackers and sometimes more so.

    Stepping up or slowing down is just as much a part of the game as the attacker with speed. Getting it spot on is a work of beauty. I was a defender in my limited playing days, and I'm surprised no one from the defense has to come to their Defense!
     

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