WRONG! I was on the field before the game and the turf looked very good. You cld not have known a FB game had been played there the night before except for the very faint lines...
Man oh man, you really need to calm down. Now for Pizza Bowl, it is the affectionate name I use for your beloved stadium. I had to honor to attend the very first match there. It is a bowl stadium, remeniscent of Byrd Stadium of my University of Maryland. Instead of using the sponsor name, I like to refer to it as the Pizza Bowl. Why you would give a negative cognative aspect to it, only you can explain. I guess it annoys you that high school football is played there. I could care less. I know why they are played and understand fully. Not the best scenario as far as the soccer team is concerned but you live with it. Hey, my DC United has been able to handle the turf replacement over the baseball diamond. But I have not written anything negative about FC Dallas that they share the facility with high school football. So I do not understand why you are picking a fight with me about it. As for paint on grass, the white lines are actually painted. There is not special grass grown that turns white. End zones are painted all of the time in different colors. Don't recall the grass being damaged. So I am not sure why you think using green paint will damage the turf. It is used for aesthetic purposes. Like I said, done often by the NFL late in their season. It was done for the NCAA soccer final four years ago in Richmond. It helps with the aesthetics and if it is not a big deal for you guys, then so be it.
Except that without an "SSS" or whatever you want to call it like we have your team will be moved to a new stadium within a few years.
I think a lot of people really don't understand the economics of the situation and they see things that play with the aesthetics of the game and that bothers them. Frankly, while I understand where they are coming from, once they get past the "it doesn't look as good as it could" part, they lose me because it is simple reality. Go back and read The Simplest Game by Paul Gardner and his comment (as well as comments from other people involved in soccer at the time) about the formation of MLS. Funny that, but they specifically say that the league won't work if it isn't in soccer specific venues. Why? You lose money. Why? Because the league is still growing and the players are still developing. You don't build a league overnight and you don't develop the US player pool in one year. Hell, we're just now getting to the point where most of the teams are coaches by people who came up through the league either as a player or as a coach. And as the game and league are still developing, some of your consumers are going to hold off until the game and the league gets to a higher level. That is their choice, and it is what it is. The only way to work through that is to keep growing. In time, MLS will get to a level where those issues are resolved. A big step in that process is transitioning out of old NFL stadiums, etc., and into the current crop of SSSs. Once MLS grows out of these stadiums, and the league has reached that next plateau, then you will see another round of stadiums built that are pretty much soccer exclusive (or closer to that then where they are now. Note that even now, other major league facilities are used from time to time for various events that aren't for the sport they are designed for.) But that is years - if not decades - from now. For now, moving into places like BMO Field and DSGP and PHP are the steps the league needs to take to grow as a business and as a league.
First, jealous of what? I like RFK. Been going there since I was a little kid. My father took me there to watch Pele and the Santos. Enjoyed the summer of Cruyff. I have many fond memories of RFK and would not trade them for an SSS. Bottom line is that DC United plays good and attractive football. Second, who is arguing economics? Why the attempt to defend the building of the Pizza Bowl? What have I said negative about it? Is it a problem that I look at it as just a stadium instead of a soccer specific stadium? No such thing exists in this country. Now I don't know about all of this drivel with the Pizza Bowl bringing on investors. The league would not have died or been succesful if games are being played in Frisco, Texas. Wow, $50 million for RFK? Where did those numbers come from? And if you follow the stadium story in DC, you will know that the owners are not in it for a stadium only. It is a much bigger development plan that they are after. Now where do you get the idea that I am looking for foreign stars? If you are going to put bullshit into my writing, then at least make it good bullshit. I am disappointed with the general play of the league. Blame it on coaching, blame it on player selection. A lot of good athletes who can run like hell but are often clueless with what they do with the ball. A big blame on that goes to the college game. And it goes to the youth programs we have in our country. Where I would hope that things would be better over the years with a steady league, it is not in my opinion. But has nothing to do with buidling SSS or allowing high school football, X-Games, monster trucks or concerts taking place in those venues. So there is no need to be defensive or to be insecure.
What exactly is ridiculous about it? What bothers you? What is "crap"? Are you willing to pay ANOTHER $20 a ticket? Because that is a rough guestimate of what it would take per person to overcome the (average) $4 mil a year loss the average MLS team in a non-SSS is losing. (*) So if you're paying $15, you'd now be paying $35? I'm going to guess when the time comes to put your money where your mouth is, you're going to turn around and walk away. And if not you, certainly most people. Whereas if you're a smart business person and realize that if you own the stadium and can use it to make money on concerts and other events - and can get the locals to chip in $55 mil - you can actually focus on soccer as your main sport and make it work. (*) $4mil/15 regular season games a year/15000 average attendance.
Now this is where I will completely disagree with you on a specific point. It has nothing to do with SSS venues. It has nothing to do with using NFL stadiums. It has all to do with control of the venues and receipts of its vendors, including parking. RKF is a great venue for soccer. Always has been. It is bad for DC United in that it cannot control the concessions or parking. It is not the facility itself that is the problem, it is the control of the facility. I don't think Kraft is hurt with the use of his stadium for the Revolution. It makes use of his facility when it would be sitting still. Does the Hunt Group still own Arrowhead in KC? While the league has bemoaned losses on some of the facilities it has used, often it is money coming from one pocket and going into another. Part of the business. One dilemna about the SSS is what happens when you get a marquee side to play here. Look where the US-Brazil match was played. Now it does not make sense for MLS franchises to build 50k+ grounds but the stadia being built for the league will not be WC venues if and when we get the right again. In fact, in your neck of the woods, the mega-stadium that will house the Cowboys will be used. So in some sense, the SSS takes a back seat. But economically, that is what needs to be done.
There is this thing called The Big Picture. You may want to check it out sometime. Otherwise you're going to walk around, talking like you think you know what you're talking about and everyone else is going to look at you and laugh. Myopic people like you have held the sport back for DECADES. Here is a few hints. Investors. MLS has added nine new investors - each buying a franchise for approximately $30 mil each - since 2002. It is my contention that the vast majority of them came in in large part because they saw that first Columbus Crew Stadium, and then the Home Depot Center and finally Pizza Hut Park could work as a business model where they could own a team and not pay out the nose for it. I explained how I got to the $50 mil. I'm not going to do it again. I'm not here to teach you reading comprehension. Defensive or insecure? No - frustrated at how thick you are. How someone who obviously loves the sport is so blind to the reality of the situation that they not only aren't helping build the sport but are obviously holding it back. Yeah, you. Oh, and don't even try to "educate" me of all people about what they are trying to do in DC. Of course, "your" SSS is going to be better than ours, right? Of course. It always is with people like you. Go away and let those of us who are building the sport do so.
Let's put it this way, I would not pay $15 to see lousy soccer. I attend DC United games because I like the way my team plays. Not so crazy about most of the league though. In the end, I am a consumer. MLS needs to give me a product that I think is worth paying for. What the team makes or loses is not my business. If the league dies because it produces a terrible product, so be it. I have no obligation to support the league for the sake of having a league. If MLS fails, someone will take their place eventually. It happened before. Now I am not wishing for that to happen. But it is a business and it is upon those who run it to make it succeed. To infer that I should treat MLS as some kind of charity, well, need I say more?
OMG. You made a salient point. I think I'm going to faint. Wow. Who would have thought. So I'm going to ask you again - if SSS aren't the way to go, what is? I ask you because you are more than happy to criticize the existing SSS and obviously know enough about the situation to make the point above. Certainly you have some idea in your head as to what the perfect solution is. Now, as to your point above, I do want to say that it doesn't "have nothing to do with SSS/NFL stadiums." You are right in that venue control is important and that there are issues in relation to larger events that require stadiums bigger than 20k or 27k or whatever. But until MLS is averaging a higher ticket price and selling out its current SSS, does it make sense to play in venues large enough to hold those bigger events?
Then quit wasting our time and move on rather than playing holier than thou. And yes, you are exactly the reason why the NASL died - and guess what, sonny, it isn't because "Americans don't get soccer". It is because people like you aren't smart enough to realize that YOU are part of the problem. YOU are the one choosing not to support it.
Hey Myopic one, let me show you the big picture. You think SSS grows on trees? I am not sure who you are having an argument with because you have read between lines in my posts that do not exist. Investors are coming into the league with the hope of making money. But let me give you something to ponder, they will build those stadiums and pay for them with ultimately, you paying for them by attending games. If DC United has been losing $50 million per year on rental alone and have not built their own stadium by now, then shame on them. I know people within their FO and never heard them speaking of such amounts. If you are talking about lost revenue, then it is a completely different picture. Anyway, I am not sure how we got from local high school football games being played at your SSS and how I proclaimed that my future SSS will be better than yours. Is there another poster using my name whose writing is invisible to me?
Uh oh, I've been hit with the "I know you are, but what am I?" defense! What am I going to do? Look, Juve, I explained the $50 mil thing. It is still posted. You can go back and read it anytime you like. Apparently you need to brush up on that thing they call reading comprehension in middle school. Here is one final hint - "league wide." You telling me that SSS don't grow on trees? Dude, that is rich. Thanks for giving me that last "Falc has absolutely no clue what he is talking about" nail in the coffin. Why don't you just go back to supporting your cheaters in Italy and leave us alone?
Drum'r, you've been subtly implying that so-called SSS's are a borderline decent idea. Do you think that MLS should even bother with adding new cities that don't have SSS's (or even actual plans to get one) in place? There seems to be a few locales that think the league needs them and their football fields.
Of course, Falc, if you do go away, know that you went away having chickened out on answering a few simple questions that someone with your obvious soccer knowledge should be able to wow us with your brilliant answer. Could it be that you actually don't know jack?
Hey Screwball, you really are losing it. Where have I criticized the building of SSS? Not once have I done so on this thread or any other. The only thing I criticized was the use of the TERM SSS. England 66 did the same thing. How you conjured in your mind that I am against MLS teams having their own stadiums, I have no idea. SSS is a misnomer because there never has been the intent to make it soccer specific. It is owner specific. And I find NOTHING WRONG with that. My criticism has to do with Garber and Co. with big smiles telling the fandom that these stadiums are being built for them. It is not. It is about making money, which businesses do. And if that means striking a deal with the local high school district, then that is business. But that does not mean that me as the soccer fan cannot be disappointed that my stadium is being used for something else. I hated when concerts would ruin the pitch at RFK every summer. While the baseball team creates its own diversion on the pitch, at least the concerts are gone. As far as a roomate can be, the Nats have been more good than bad for DC United. I hate to see how bad things will get next summer with DC United as the lone tenant. So quit arguing with me as we never had an argument. It was all about semantics of that stupid term SSS. It is a minomer and always has been. But teams having their own stadium is a good thing.
Hah. Yeah, me subtle. lol. Again, my apologies about getting so worked up about this. I'd be shocked - absolutely and totally shocked - if MLS were to allow a prospective owner buy a team and expand or move to a city that doesn't at the very least have a SSS on the horizon. With something over ten prospective investors pushing to get into a league that has publicly said that it won't expand more than two - MAYBE four at the absolute MOST - in any near future, there is no reason why MLS can't say "you have to have a SSS to be considered." And frankly, they have all but said that of late.
Too busy writing a response. You are way off base with me. Seriously, I have no idea why you have gone off tangent. You created an argument that just was not there. I have no idea why you became so defensive. Now while some of you feel an obligation to support the league to keep it afloat, fine. That is not me. I have attended less than a handfull of Redskin games. And that is because someone gave me a ticket. I would never pay for such an overpriced thing. Same goes for the Bullets (er Wizards) and Capitals. I enjoy sports but do not put a lot of money into professional franchises. DC United is the only one who gets season tickets from me. And if the team ever got to the point that it resembles others in the league, then that would stop. If you guys want to do charity work, that is your prerogative. I have plenty of other charities that keep me busy, including soccer, so MLS will not be one of them. If you want to continue arguing with yourself, go ahead. Like I said in my previous post, we never had an argument. Maybe you made some assumptions about me. Maybe you read in between the lines wrong. My reading comprehension is very good. And I know Jack, he is a good friend of mine.
Oh. So this is all about reading comprehension. We use the word "specific" to mean it is designed for soccer first - but not exclusively - and you seem to take offense at that. Explain to me where the word "specific" means "exclusive"? Well, at least we finally have you on the same page about places like the HDC and PHP being a good thing. Now we're back to what the definition of "is" is. Okay, let's see if we can get this straight for once. The current crop of stadiums like CCS, HDC, PHP, DSGP, BMO Field, etc., are more specific for soccer than the stadiums the league was in in 1996. They are specifically build for soccer first (but not only), they are specifically owned by soccer teams and run by soccer teams. No postage stamp fields or field-sizes. Venue control BY soccer teams. These are all things that make them "specific" to soccer. Look, we're all sorry that the state of soccer is such that at this point, other revenue is necessary to help make these business operations profitable. We're sorry that you have to put up with stadiums that don't look exactly like the stadium you have in your head as the perfect stadium. But we don't live in your head. We just don't. We live in a world where sometimes you have to give up a little of your idealism to deal with the practical. But that doesn't take anything away from the fact that Pizza Hut Park is specifically designed to house a soccer team first and foremost. I'm sorry if you don't get that. But that isn't our problem. It is painfully obvious to me that some people in the soccer world are too caught up in the negative. Not exactly sure what causes that, but there it is. And it holds the sport back. A lot. I references The Simplest Game a while back? Go back and read about US soccer and all its struggles between rival leagues and various other petty differences and you'll see what I mean. For those who aren't able to let go of the negative, I hate to tell you but MLS is being positive and making headway. Lots. Multi-mullion dollar/multi-year television contract type lots. If you want to come along, you're always welcome. But if you're going to hammer FCD because it references PHP as a soccer specific stadium just so you can have something to nitpick, something tells me you will always find something to complain about and I have to question how seriously to take you. FWIW, I'm not saying you can't be critical. Heavens no. I certainly know I'm not always right and count on my friends that I trust to tell me how they see things and count on them helping me see when I'm wrong. But the ones I trust are the ones who have the intellectual integrity to be able to do the same thing. I guess I'm saying that if it can't become a dialog because you won't acknowledge basic reality and I get the sense that you're just being contrarian. . . . well, I just don't have much faith that the conversation will be very fruitful. I think I've said my piece on this. Sorry again for the diatribe.
Once again, I ask you a few simple questions and you keep on truckin'. Might want to consider doing that while drinking Jack, 'cause someday that is going to get you in trouble. Maybe you're judgmental but don't realize it? Maybe you actually aren't soccer knowledgeable? Maybe it is too much to ask you to go back and read simple math?
Just to make sure, for the rest of y'all who may not want to go back through and read all this drivel to see the questions I asked, here they are: Of course, he did come back and say he didn't have a problem with the *idea* of a SSS, just not the nomenclature. Not sure he meant that or that is what he was saying. Please forgive me for thinking that when someone is THAT upset about nomenclature that maybe there is more to it. We did find out that he is just a consumer and doesn't care whether MLS survives or not. Yet he is more than willing to sit on high and judge MLS as poor quality. I guess I don't have a lot of patience for that. I understand it - I do. And I agree that MLS is still growing. But I guess I like the "lead, follow {which I read as contribute} or get out of the way" theory of leadership. If it isn't good enough and all you're going to do is throw stones, then move along. You're not saying what you're saying because you care about the sport (obviously, he isn't). You're saying it because you're judgmental. And fwiw, I'd be just as disappointed in an American who looks down on, say, European or South American basketball just because it isn't as good as the NBA. Sorry for getting all worked up about this. It is just that at a time when I see MLS becoming something really special, growing into being something more than what it was, the holier-than-thou-but-I-really-don't-care attitude gets under my skin.
First, I do not read specific as first. I Google Webster and got this definition: a: restricted to a particular individual, situation, relation, or effect <a disease specific to horses> b: exerting a distinctive influence (as on a body part or a disease) <specific antibodies> To me they are just stadiums and find it insulting when the league (not FC Dallas) goes around touting as if these stadia are built for soccer only, as if the game can only be played in an SSS. Like most stadiums, they are multi-use and if the investors have any brains, they will get as much use out of them as they possibly can. The NBA found this wisdom with the WNBA. Do the women draw anywhere near the men? Probably not. But the basketball arena has people using their seats, their concessions and their parking lots in summer months when those facilities are usually empty. So it makes good business sense, even if the league will never make the revenues of its men counterpart. I have no problem with any of these stadiums being used for other events, even if the primary purpose is for soccer (and perhaps they should be called soccer primary stadiums). I have no problem with MLS teams exploring other revenue streams. I am critical though of how the league has marketed these facilities and if we go back 120 some posts, to the original one that started this thread, it seems that some are confused as to how a high school football game can be played on their soccer specific grounds right smack in the stretch run of the league season. I know why and understand it completely. But the league has been selling this bill of goods known as a soccer specific stadium and now some of its customers are saying what? And that may have an affect of how some may support the league.
Drum'rBoy, save yourself the hassle and let this one go. You aren't going to get anywhere with this guy. You have already went 121 posts with him and that has gotten you to the definition of "specific" and "is." Pizza Hut park by any other name (Pizza Bowl) is still better than a baseball field in DC.