High Five

Discussion in 'Referee' started by Rufusabc, May 30, 2012.

  1. Rufusabc

    Rufusabc Member+

    May 27, 2004
    Weekend high profile tournament, u17 girls. Black no 3 has committed two quick hard fouls in the first 10 minutes. Second foul she is spoken to. If it wasn't a showcase, it would have been yellow (yes, I know). Third hard foul, she gets the yellow. And after the card, she is high fived by a teammate. Boy, was I pissed off by that. I had hand cuffs on from the assignor and the organizers on the cards, but I wished I had thrown them both out. Thoughts?
     
  2. SA14mars

    SA14mars Member+

    Jan 3, 2005
    Dallas
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Second yellow for unsporting behavior. Any college coach there would have stood by you on that.
     
  3. La Rikardo

    La Rikardo Moderator

    May 9, 2011
    nj
    7+7:
    1e. Commits an act which, in the opinion of the referee, shows a lack of respect for the game (e.g. aggressive attitude, inflammatory behavior, or taunting)
     
  4. SimpleGame6

    SimpleGame6 Member

    Apr 16, 2012
    Club:
    Aberdeen FC
    Could it be a competition between players to get the first yellow card? Or was it done in an obvious "F this Ref and that player" manner?
     
  5. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'm not sure about this. At least, I put it more in the "you had to be there" category.

    Rufusbac says that she was high-fived by her teammate. Meaning the teammate initiated the action. That means, to me--and it seems to be Rufusbac's instinct, too--that you've got to book both if you're booking anyone. Is a high-five on the field a "two caution + red card" scenario on most occasions?

    If this was for a tactical foul, I don't think we'd blink or think about it too much. If this was one player going up to thank their teammate for a DOGSO foul, would we book that player? Also, if a high five just happens to come after a caution, but was for an earlier play, we are entering a realm where we could grossly misinterpret an innocuous action (not saying at all that's what happened in Rufusbac's scenario--but it could happen if we go looking for things like this). It just seems a slippery slope here.

    Were any opponents offended or angry? Were they celebrating an injury? If neither of those things is true, then who was harmed? Yes it might tick off the referee, but it's not dissent. It would have to be a form of unsporting behavior, as you say. But if it's not escalating anything or inflaming opponents, I tend to think you look the other way here and then give the players in question a really short leash for any subsequent fouls. Better to send someone off on something that's clear rather than something that seems, from the description, dubious to me.

    I'm also not sure about this. Other than violent fouls, it's been my experience that college coaches want to see the players play and don't want referees to step in too much at all with cards at showcase events. If there are behavioral problems like dissent or simulation or general "disrepute" antics, college coaches will (for the most part) want to identify them, be aware of them and then, if the player is skilled enough despite those deficiencies, correct them once they attend their school. But if they don't even get to see the player in question because they are sent off after 15 minutes because they high-fived a teammate... well, I'm not sure that's the result every college coach is going to stand behind.
     
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  6. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Right. That's the clause to cite if you book here. But you only book here IF someone is being inflamed.
     
  7. refontherun

    refontherun Member+

    Jul 14, 2005
    Georgia
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    To me, that would be akin to clapping in my face. I know how the showcases can be. They want you to try to keep everyone in the match so they can show their stuff, but I don't think any of the college coaches came to see that kind of thing. Not necessarily the high-five, but persistant infringement. If she's gotten a yellow this early in the match, and is acting the way she is, she probably won't be there at the end anyway. Being a showcase, I might give her an public AC and one more chance, but I think my gut reaction would be to get rid of her now.
     
  8. timtheref

    timtheref Member

    Aug 23, 2010
    Following the yellow and high five, I would remind her that the college coaches are here to watch her play, not get sent off. That could be the wake up call she needs to not do it.

    This whole situation could've been a several year long feud if these teams had seen each other before. It could've been that the fouled player had performed a challenge against the player booked in a previous game, and the teammate was high fiving revenge. That's the difference with women's games...long term grudges.
     
    dadman repped this.
  9. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Why?

    One is direct and public dissent toward you and is always a yellow card.

    The other is, in some form, a celebration with a teammate (and apparently initiated by the teammate). It might still be misconduct in some cases, but it also might be nearly innocuous in other cases. I struggle to see how the two compare.
     
  10. soccerking1990

    Aug 11, 2010
    Texas
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    No way I am giving a caution for this. Maybe a quick word, but not a lecture. A simple "look" making eye contact with the players would suffice.
     
  11. Rufusabc

    Rufusabc Member+

    May 27, 2004
    Here's what I did. I called both players over and they tried to weasel out of it. I said to them that it just looks awful and someone could take what you are doing and punish you for it on the field. Is that what you want? They seemed to get it, but I also feel they knew I had my hands tied on the cards. I dislike that type of play and attitude. There was a certain smugness surrounding the entire tournament, and I wonder if we are coddling our better players. There was some real nastiness to the play especially on corners that I hadn't really seen from women that much. And a lot more sniping. I did announce to a large group towards the end that if you don't feel like playing tomorrow commit just one more foul and I'll make sure you don't play. That pretty much ended the crap.
     
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  12. SimpleGame6

    SimpleGame6 Member

    Apr 16, 2012
    Club:
    Aberdeen FC
    We have to remember that these college tournaments and academy teams attract a lot of well off parents and players. There's very few low income players on teams, it's not like other countries here. So yeah you're going to run into some really holier than thou "I get whatever I want" people sometimes and it can be really annoying.

    On the plus side when there's a team from Mexico or Costa Rica at these tournaments that spanks some prissy rich team, it's really sweet.
     
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  13. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    And why exactly do "we have to remember" all this stereotyping?

    If we're going down the road of one end of the socio-economic class spectrum not readily accepting authority figures, we could easily go down the path of the other end of the socio-economic class spectrum resenting authority figures. There's plenty to work with to craft whatever predetermined conclusion you want to make.
     
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  14. SimpleGame6

    SimpleGame6 Member

    Apr 16, 2012
    Club:
    Aberdeen FC
    That doesn't make the observation any less true. It just means that everyone is a jerk.
     
  15. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Well, that's one worldview.

    Regardless, I just find it peculiar that you would view it as "sweet" when certain teams get spanked.
     
  16. SimpleGame6

    SimpleGame6 Member

    Apr 16, 2012
    Club:
    Aberdeen FC
    It's sweet when lots of teams get spanked. I'm a ref but I'm also a fan of the game, and when a better team that plays the game the right way (possession based, tiki-taka) wins I like it. It's just like when watching NCAA and a big physical terrible team loses to a short small skilled team, I cheer.

    That's my world view, I like it when underdogs win.
     
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  17. La Rikardo

    La Rikardo Moderator

    May 9, 2011
    nj
    Another high five-related question: Does anyone here consider it unsporting behavior for a youth player to deliberately miss the referee's hand in post-game high fives after the player is feeling upset at the referee? I've been told by one or two refs that any time a player did that they would show a post-game yellow. Each time that's happened to me, I've either ignored it or had a quick word with the coach about their player's lack of sportsmanship.
     
  18. SimpleGame6

    SimpleGame6 Member

    Apr 16, 2012
    Club:
    Aberdeen FC
    I've ignored it and I've mentioned it to the coach. Interestingly it's only happened to me since I moved to a new state where the sportsmanship is amazingly poor. Everyone seems to think this is how it is, but it's awful and it really has me down on reffing. Never given an yellow for it, it's their choice whether they want to shake my hand or not, I guess they think there's not consequences but people remember.
     
  19. campbed

    campbed Member

    Oct 13, 2006
    New Hampshire, USA
    Oh my.
    <start.Rant>
    Lets let the little (a.k.a. trifling) things go.

    It is not required they even shake your hand. We could start a whole thread (I think we have in the past) on if you should even be standing there at all for handshakes.

    Are you going to caution the defender and attacker who don't shake each others hand?

    Are you going to dismiss the one coach that doesn't come shake the referee crew's hand, or worse, doesn't shake just yours? If not, then why on earth are you going to caution a player/substitute/substituted player?

    They are not happy with you. So what, and you've already spent too much time thinking about it.

    I would think much less of a referee who would caution a player for this.
    <end.Rant>
     
  20. fairplayforlife

    fairplayforlife Member+

    Mar 23, 2011
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I agree with MassRef this is a "you had to be there" but if you really think they were high-fiving in celebration of the misconduct they just committed then send them off and let the tournament deal with the fall out despite the college showcase situation on cards. If they are trying to disrespect the game in that manner they shouldn't get away with it because of something like that.
     
  21. oldreferee

    oldreferee Member

    May 16, 2011
    Tampa
    Really??? I'm having a hard time even picturing that. And it doesn't sound like your usual post. Is this something peculiar to a specific league?
     
  22. La Rikardo

    La Rikardo Moderator

    May 9, 2011
    nj
    I don't know what the tradition is elsewhere, but high fives after the game are common in youth games around here. Players line up to high five one another and then they come by us to high five us. It's normal. We even do it at State Cup and at high school games. Every so often, a player will be pissed off at me or the other refs and they'll deliberately miss the high five. I've had a couple of refs who have told me that that action needs to be cautioned.
     
  23. oldreferee

    oldreferee Member

    May 16, 2011
    Tampa
    Hmmm....
    We had a thread a while back about the proper post-game behavior specifically in NFHS. IIRC, it leaned heavily to whistle and leave (like NBA refs?)....Always my choice if I smell any danger anyway.

    But, if you have a local tradition to the contrary, I suppose you have to manage it. Personally, I would be looking to give players (and coaches) a way to demur privately. But, if they make a public show of it, they may back you into a card. Yuk.
     
  24. GKbenji

    GKbenji Member+

    Jan 24, 2003
    Fort Collins CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It's done frequently here too, but certainly not "traditional" as I never saw this happen 10 years ago. It's a more recent occurrence. As a ref, I really don't care to stand there an extra couple minutes to shake hands with over 30 players, most of whom don't really care about the ref anyway. As a coach, I'd rather get my team back together quickly, so I just send my captains over.
     
  25. La Rikardo

    La Rikardo Moderator

    May 9, 2011
    nj
    I certainly don't like this tradition, but it's something that's not gonna go away anytime soon.
     

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