A point I've labored to make for a while... he needs the ball, as do most playmakers... Keane and Scholes were almost made for each other, we are unlikely to find someone who matches Scholes' style of play as perfectly as Keane does/did. Scholes is a CAM who can make excellent passes and has good vision (but is not a through ball passer - not in the way that Ronaldinho or Riquelme is) and thrived mainly off the ball, arriving late and powering in shots, Keane was a CM who played box to box and always controlled the midfield with his accurate, though far from inventive passing - he holds the ball on offense and stops the ball on defense perfectly complementing Scholes who doesn't need alot of the ball to be effective or creative. Kleberson is a playmaker who can lie deep or play behind the forwards, but he is worthless unless he sees the ball often in fact - if he advances far down the pitch without the ball its unlikely that he will be able to hold it for very long due to his size, but my word, when he gets the ball he always puts it in a good position - for the love of me I cant figure out why Fergusson has not realized that Keane needs to take a backseat when it comes to running the team's offense. Scholes' lack of assertion is probably part of the problem... the Keane situation is almost similar to Jordan with the Bulls, he could only play with a "point guard" (there never really was a point guard when Jordan played tho ) who would settle for giving Michael the ball as soon as he got it up the floor and just spot up and shoot threes... everything had to go through Mike and everyone else had to look for scraps... Scholes has rightly deferred to Keane most of his career, but its time he took the reigns up and controlled more of the attack, if he did that then any number of mids would be capable to fill the role of box to box midfielder. Like someone said, few mids can do what Keane did in his prime, we cant expect to get someone who will run the show with the ball AND be as good defensively as we need him to be unless we shell out bookou money, and even then, the players out there are few.
Would you consider Djemba-Djemba a dmid? I always considered him more a destroyer type than a box to box mid. Maybe he falls into the category of Butt, a box to box mid who's just not good at offense. One point, Fergie has never bought a Dmid, but the mark of a great manager/coach is the ability to change. I'm not saying we need absolutley need a dmid, but some of the more successful teams out there employ one, ie Chelsea. Like Johno said, having a dedicated dmid allows more your more creative players to be creative, see Makelele or Gattuso.
It's actually a bit strange. As we converted to the 4-5-1 in the 01-02 season, we actually ended up becoming more offensive, scoring more goals, but conceding a huge number as well. This stopped the following season, maybe because of the arrival of Quieroz, but I think there was something else at work here. Keane had his hip surgery at the start of the 02-03 season, and it seemed like when he returned he was a different player. He lacked the pace he had before, but also seemed more defensive-minded. Now whether this was something he had discussed with SAF and/or Quieroz, I'm not sure. But I think that not only Keane's injury problems but also the roles of Veron and Scholes had something to do with it. We needed someone to play back a bit more, and Keane was the logical choice. Seems like he's been back there ever since, and while our defense has been mostly fantastic, our offense has suffered noticeably.
Djemba was a horrid mistake brought in by Martin. Hewas tried as part of our wierd and ineffective 5man system but his distribution was so poor he found himself staying further and further back as his team-mates learnt to distrust him. He was supposed to be a CM..but he put paid to that pretty quickly. Again, I see and have made many of the points johno made some time ago but the reality is that our manager doesn't work in this way. The ability to change and adjust with your surroundings is what we are doing I suppose by using this new fangled system. If we go the whole hog and get a DM then the transformation would be complete and effectively we will have abandoned the traditions of the club for a 'bold' new era. Using CM's isn;t the problem imo, finding ones who can go box-to-box properly, is, hence all this clamour for Baptista and Essien.
Funny you should say that. I remember a few Roy statements about his hip and him realising he had to change his game as he knew he couldn't do what he used to do anymore. I think his reluctance to find himself out of position upfield eventually led to him becoming what he is now. The problem we have is that Keane, as the legend he is, can't stand to see a lack of drive or aimlessness around him when he is so far back so naturally his instinct is to go further up the pitch and help. Like Johno said, it is time for this to stop...but I honestly don;'t think Keane has it in him to take a back seat. He;s our captain and our leader and I think he always will be until he quits. I totally agree that because Keane controls any midfield he is part of, wherever he plays the effect on the team will show...hence we concede less now but cannot get the midfield offense going in the way we should. It's a double edged sword, unfortunately, I don't think this can change with Keane still in the team. I do believe Jones/Fletcher are going to be groomed this season...especially if we get no CM in(which is looking extremely likely)
Then we need to get on with it and actually do it... we've won one title post Keane surgery and its not enough we need to make the switch faster damnit. I guess part of the problem comes down to our scouting, but we cant replace Keane if we dont play his replacements without him in the lineup. At some point, Fergusson is going to have to trust someone - we have not likely brought in that player, but I get the feeling that even if we do, he may not get the chance he needs. O'Shea has promise, he's sufficiently attack minded, he's a decent passer, though not creative but he can dribble a bit and is strong in the air - I would not mind seeing him being played in CM but again - in a 442 not in a 433 next to Keane cuz then we weaken our attack too much. Its Fergie's fault for hemming and hawing over whether to trust whom we have/have had or whether to buy the player we need. We've needed serious cover in midfield for 3 seasons now and yet all we've seen is stop gap measures... Phil Neville O'Shea even Fortune has gotten in a game or 2 in CM the buys we've made have not been big buys either. DjDj and Kleberson - were we really trying to replace Keane (not when we bought them, but in the future) with either of these?
This is the 'problem' you have when you have a legend/all-timer in your team. They provide so much and are capable of so much that proper replacements can/will never be bought in until the player is either definitely in his last season or retires. See Maldini, Hierro and Matthuas as other examples. I think it was the same cycle with Robbo and Keano also with one of the reasons why Ince was booted out and the younger, humbler Keane was given the midfield. If this is to be Keane's last season, his successor will play alongside him and learn before the team is his. Jones(my bet) Fletcher or some new guy. We'll see...if this is Keane's last one we efinitely will get answers per Fergie's M.O
I'm actually getting pretty excited to see Jones play from all the talk there is about him. Sounds like if he is fostered next to Keano this upcoming season he can develop into a pretty damn good player.
I seriously can't wait to see him either. He's the most exciting player - the one I can't wait to see develop - out of anyone else we have or will get this Summer.
All this talk of Essien etc. I have never seen the kid play, but as a Manchester United fan you always have to be excited about what can come through the youth ranks; as our history has shown over the years that we can produce some great ones.
The youth system is more like fishing than farming. You might have lots of talented youngsters coming through, but not in certain desired positions. For a decade now there hasn't been a single striker who has established himself in the first team and that's why we've had to spend so much on getting Yorke, Cole, Rooney, Van Nistelrooy, Saha and Smith. Hopefully Rossi and Ebanks-Blake will put an end to that. Similarly, its going to be a far cry to expect the next Keano to come through the youth ranks. I'm not saying that Jones and co. won't make it at OT - it's just that they will be very different players from Keane, and if we're adamant on having a replacement who has the same qualities as keen, we'll probably need to buy one (assuming such a player even exists). I think maybe we're too obsessed with getting a player who is much like Keane...and in doing so our options are very, very limited. In fact, I can't even think of any player who plays the way Keane does, and also has the same leadership style he does. I think if we're going to try and buy a new central midfielder, we need to look for (i) someone who could be classed as a midfield general (ii) someone who will complement Fletcher well (not Scholes). I think one of the arguments for buying a DM so far has been that it would allow Scholes to play in a more optimal, attacking role. If we are to do that, I don't mind getting an experienced DM who would cost relatively little and would just plug in the hole for a couple of years before we bring in 'the' Keane replacement. But if we're looking for a longterm replacement we need to look for one who will play well with Fletcher next to him. Fletcher himself has the potential to be a very imposing player, and I don't think he will need to be playing an attacking role like Scholes does. I predict that in a year's time, Fletcher will be far better defensively than Scholes has ever been. This would allow us to bring in a Keane replacement who is not necessarily a defensive midfielder like Gattuso, Makelele or Mascherano. That's assuming Fergie's longterm goal is to play a 4-4-2 system. If he wants to stick with a 4-3-3, then a defensive midfielder would be a good acquistion, although I feel that this means we end up playing Rooney in a sub-optimal position.
Which is why we shouldn't necessarily be looking for a very defensive central midfielder, especially if Fergie intends to make Fletcher a key member of the United midfield. He really needs to go the gym a bit and go on a Sumo wrestler's diet for a couple of weeks, because it would make him a much better player if he was physically more dominating.
well, being defensively better than scholes does not mean that much... I had a dog who could play better defense (without fouling mind you) than Scholes... and I am not joking.
My point is that if we want a longterm replacement, we should be looking at someone who complements Fletcher rather than Scholes. Bringing in a DM like Mascherano wouldn't be too effective I feel, because whereas Fletcher isn't a defensive midfielder, he isn't exactly an attacking one either. Of course, if we play a 4-3-3 in the future, then that would be a different matter...
It came with Veron in 01/02. Alex brought him in because he thought our style had become "predictable". Veron was to bring a sophistication to the side that would improve our performance in Europe. But we quickly found that Veron could not operate in a 2 man midfield with Keane. He was even less able defensively than Scholes, was caught on the ball far more often than Paul (who usually wriggles out of trouble) and made too many rushed bad passes. Veron lost possession too easily and midfield was far too weak with just Roy and Veron and Alex started to play a three man midfield with Scholes at LCM. We conceded 45 goals again in that first season with Veron but without the massive 97 goals scored in 99/00 and so dropped to third position behind Arsenal and Liverpool. I think Quieroz joined us at the start of the 01/02 season didn't he? Wasn't he with us two years before going to Madrid? I could be wrong on that. Possibly. I can understand that when playing the likes of Arsenal but retaining this when playing teams like West Brom, teams with little offensive ambitions, suggests that they were following a tactical priority not merely one of supporting Keane and Scholes. The howling flaw against such teams was our inability to score, the narrow game that the 4-3-3 formation (or 4-5-1 if you like) gave us and the inability to play two wingers and RvN and Rooney up front. It would have been far more sensible against these teams to come at them down both wings and through the middle but the use of three CMs prevented that. I think that points to a preference for the 4-4-3 tactic - there was never any need to support Keane and Scholes and or protect defence against these teams. You've become obsessed with Essien and Baptista. If either join us I'll buy you a drink ............ or two You have far too much faith in the rationality of our tactical choices We had many opportunities to play 4-4-2 towards the end of last season, particularly when contract negotiations had Giggs playing out of his skin and Ronaldo was on song, but we never took them even though we often needed desperately to open up bunker defences. We just never took them. As an advocate of 4-4-2 I don't find that encouraging.
Nope, Queiroz guided South Africa to the 2002 World Cup, then joined us during the summer of 2002. I know that he was brought in to help shore up the defense (which he has done quite well), but IMO the 4-5-1 move is on Fergie far more than it is on Queiroz. Also remember that the 4-5-1/modified 4-3-3 we used for much of last season was due more to injuries than tactics. Oh isn't it enough that other teams accuse us of getting the officials on our side without having you insinuate the same? I assume you meant the 4-4-2 here.
If only! No I meant 4-3-3. I think that 4-3-3 has become a preferred tactic in its own right rather than merely supporting Keane and Scholes. My point is that we have failed to open up several bunker defences from weak teams with this 4-3-3 tactic. We've played a narrow game running directly into a packed central defence, lofting the ball speculatively into the box from deep wide positions and shooting hopefully from distance. Lots of "attempts on goal" but few of them of much use. All this to no avail. What we needed to do was stretch the bunker defence by attacking down both wings simultaneously to prevent opposition fullbacks and wide midfielders from becoming extra CBs and CDMs - something which occurs when you only attack down one wing. But with our three CMs then we either have to play one winger - Ronaldo OR Giggs but not Ronaldo AND Giggs, or just one man up front, or push Rooney out wide. We either have just one wide man and two in the middle or two widemen but just one in the middle. The 3 CMs causes us to sacrifice attacking ability when we desperately need it and simply don't need defensive support for Keane and Scholes. The fact that we do that indicates to me a fixation on the 4-3-3 formation which causes the Alex/Quieroz team to ignore the 4-4-2 option. We've played this 4-5-1/4-3-3 for 4 years now, initially in order to fit Veron into the team without dropping either Keane or Scholes but recently in this 4-3-3 form which I believe comes from Queiroz not Alex. Alex has had far too much success from 4-4-2 to ignore it so totally now, particularly as the 4-5-1/4-3-3 has been so unsuccessful. What is it now? Two trophies in 4 years? And one of those because Arsenal choked There is a tendancy for coaches to jump onto tactical bandwagons. Years ago, I recall Glenn Hoddle stating that we all had to use wingbacks, that 4-4-2 would never win anything ever again. Then Brazil and France went on to win World and European Cups playing 4-4-2 to illustrate what rubbish that was. Recently the flavour of the month has been 4-3-3 and we've joined the crowd. But enough is enough. It's time to dump it. For the last 4/5 seasons our game has deteriorated almost linearly. Goals scored/conceded difference over the last 6 years: 99/00 52 00/01 48 01/02 42 02/03 40 03/04 29 04/05 32 We've swung far to far in the direction of defensive play. We need, certainly against 50% or so of Premiership oppositions, to play Ronaldo, Giggs, Rooney and RvN when we can and we can only do that with 4-4-2 if they're all to play in their preferred positions. Time to go back to 4-4-2 basics. Time to put teams to the sword that shouldn't be on the same pitch instead of granting them far too much respect for attacking play that they've no intention of using
I think we will go back to the 442. Part of the reason we did not play it when we had the personel to at the end of the year was the fact that the 433 had done so well for us and I think SAF and Queiroz were afraid of fixing something that was not broke (at one point last season we were matching Chelsea result for result), to accomodate Ruud who had only just become available who was rusty anyway. The nice thing about playing 442 against weaker opposition is that we have so much... hmm... ordinance, that when they try to use their pea-shooters they are out gunned. What I mean is, we will be very attacking in the 442 because that's the type of players we will field, however the danger to us is when the other team attacks... more often than not, our defence will take care of that, and if the match becomes very end to end, one has to figure that United, with superior attackers (and defenders) will win most of the time. SAF needs to be ruthless, he needs to either drop Keane, or drop Scholes if we cant play the 442, its our best formation and its the best use of the players that we have. Save Keane and Scholes, all our other players play better in a 442 or rather with 442 personel... Ruud will still be a lone striker because of the way Rooney plays. SAF needs to realize that if Keane and Scholes cant do the job we need them to do in the 442 that we have to replace one or both, and we've got to do it soon. It's not like we are playing a 352 and looking for wingbacks who are rare, we are looking for 2 good centermids... that's not a daunting task, almost all teams play 442 or some variant and we need to get back to that formation and if 1 or 2 players is stopping that then that player or those players have to be axed.
There is no question that 'love is blind'. SAF has been ruthless in moving players like Robson, Ince, Kanchelskis etc. on when they are about to go past their best, he did that same with pairings such as Pallister & Bruce. The Keane / Scholes partnership is in a similar predicament - and believe me it hurts me to say that as Keane is my fave player of all United history and Scholes is my most underrated United player of all time. It is not only their fault, in that in Giggs (of yesteryear) and Becks we had two very hard working players on defence. For all their strengths in other areas, there is not the same defensive cover from Giggs (today) and Ronaldo. This has led to that evil word compromise, examples being; playing an extra man in midfield - not a problem if they can contribute sufficiently to attack but the players we have had in third-place mid have been poor. Pushing Giggs to striker has also cost us. Our engine has a weakness and we have both tried both tweaking other parts of the car to compensate using inadequate spare parts and also resorted to redesigning the whole car around our weakening engine. More often than not it has not worked. I can see where you are coming from DS, it is a travesty to only class Keane as a DM. However there can be no argument that his defensive qualities were second-to-none, so it is natural when looking for a replacement focus on this area. But you are dead right, if you want a job ahead of the back four at United you must offer a threat. Keane is not unique, there was a player who was fantastic and brave in the tackle who both anchored the midfield and also setup / scored a number of goals - Bryan Robson. There are others in world football, not many at all however - so I think our chances of growing a player like Fletcher to perform this task are remote. As we did with both Robbo & Keano we need to spot one in his early twenties and break the bank. Then we can be set for ten years and the post Robbo / post Keano era.
Mascherano is officially a Corithians player. He was training with them, and was presented not to long ago. Saw it on the news, and on sports.yahoo.com/sow check out the slideshow.
Great post! *Blushes* In all seriousness, this is one of the best posts I have read on BS this year! Giuys, get your rep finger out for this man! Nothing I can add to what you've typed really except that I agree with it to the wire.
http://sports.yahoo.com/sow/news?slug=reu-corinthians_picture&prov=reuters&type=lgns http://football.guardian.co.uk/breakingnews/feedstory/0,14546,-5125865,00.html EDIT: Upon closer examination the articles are identical.
Keane was at his peak around the 98/00 seasons when we won the treble and then had our best Premiership performance ever the following season. In that following season we conceded 45 goals - almost twice as many as last season's 26. Where were these "second-to-none defensive qualities" you speak of? Keane has NEVER been a defensively oriented player. He was aggressive and was superb tackler but, like Gerrard today, he was never of the defensive state of mind needed to be a DM. His motivation has always been to drive forward not to fall back and protect defence. It is more akin to Smith than Makalele. Indeed, that is one of the problems today - if we could get him to concentrate on defence then he's probably still capable of freeing Scholes up to play his more effective attacking role. But he just doesn't have that mentality. There's a lot to be learned from the 99/00 season which reveals that if you play 4-4-2 with two genuinely wide players then you will concede goals because of a weakness in central midfield. But you gain more from the significant increase in attacking options. 99/00 wasn't just the season we conceded 45 goals it was also the season we scored 97. That second figure is the other side of the same coin. That's the compromise you make. But we've gone from : scored 97 conceded 45 to scored 58 conceded 26 And in doing so we've gone from a treble and repeated Premierships to just two trophies in 4 years. The evidence is overwhelming : we have swung far too far from attack to defence. We need to hit a middle point in this. We do this by using flexible tactics. You don't play the same way at home to West Brom as you do away to Arsenal. You may need to support Keane and defence in the second of those two but you don't need to do so in the first. But play the same way is precisely what we're doing. Our failure last season came against the likes of Norwich, Portsmouth, West Brom etc. It came because of our failure to score against these teams or, more exactly, it came because of our failure to create worthwhile chances. The solution is obvious!