It seems that the recipient of the herman award is usually determined by statistics and not actual ability. I am sure that you all have seen winners of the award who you thought should not even be in the running because all they did was convert the work that their teamates did into goals, while they camped out in a safe position which did not require them to run. Other hard working players are overlooked because they are forced to exhaust themselves while doing two or three other players jobs. I have never seen a recipient a this award play on a team that doesn't have atleast one other all american caliber player to help him look good. My opinion is that the winner of this award should be determined by things other than just stats. Look at his teamates, his opponents, his work rate, his knowledge of the game. Don't rule someone out because they didn't score 5 goals against some no name university. just my opinion.
Hermann I agree. You should include coaches endorsements, Game Winning Goals, level of competition, W/L record, and overall team success in determining the winner. If that were the case, we should choose after the "cup", and require the winner to be on a team that at least is in the quarterfinals. If I had to pick now, I would have the following 10 candidates: 1)Joseph Ngwenya; monster jr. year, 7 GWG this year, and the sole reason his team will be in the NCAA's, even though they play inferior competition. 2) Matt Taylor; 6 GWG this year in 12 games. Led NCAA in Tourney scoring for National champ UCLA in 2002. 13 goals 3 assists in 2003. 2nd in the nation in goals per game for 12-1 team. 3&4) Seth Stammler and Scott Buete; the heart of Maryland's middle and back line. The offensive statistics are not awsome, however, this is the number 2 ranked team because of these 2 players. 5) Adolfo Gregorio; 3 goals and 10 assists for #1 UCLA. Assisted on goal and had GW PK in Semis last year. 1 GWG in 2003, however if he contributes down the stretch and in playoffs, he should be considered for top player award. 6) Alan Gordon; 11 goals in 14 matches for underrated OSU beavers. 5 GWG, and if his team holds up and advances to the "cup", he will be the primary reason. 7) Ryan Cochrane; leading resurgance of Santa Clara from his defensive position. Absence for national team duty will hurt. 8) Chris Wingert; Top defender and great all around player. Too bad team does not have enough to win a championship. 9) Ryan Pore, Tulsa; just for the fact that I need to identify his team is a handicap, however, this guy is putting up great numbers; 14 goals in 14 games. If Tulsa makes the quarters and Pore continues to pour it on, he is a legitimate candidate. 10) Memo Arzate; This kid can connect and his UCSB team is 10-1-1, and will win their conference and challenge for the national championship. I did not bother to seperate current "watch list" players from mine, however, i only see a couple of legitimate candidates on the original list, and wonder when the comittee wil make some worthy additions and deletions.
Hermann Redux I almost forgot to opine; Does anyone really think the Hermann comittee will actually look at the candidates they preselected and update their "watch list", and actually consider someone they did not originally pick? Never will it happen, although if ever it should, it would be in 2003.
Well, if they agree, as many of us do, that Ngwenya is the winner than they don't need to have a new list as the winner will be from the original. But your basic point is correct. They need to update their list and eliminate from general contention guys like Ara (how the HELL did he get on there?) and White and add guys like Taylor and Arzate for consideration.
Just want to update the candidates, ours and their's, and how they did this week. (Only a few played midweek games.) Ngwenya had 2 goals and an assist in a 4-0 win over Winthrop. In 13 games this season, Ngwenya now has 13 goals and 11 helpers and led Coastal to an 11-2 record. Arzate had a goal in UCSB's 3-1 win over Cal Poly. The "other" Memo now has five goals and 13 assists in 13 games and led the Gauchos to an 11-1-1 record. Hesmer had 1 save and gave up 1 goal in 68 minutes in Wake's 6-1 win over Gardner Webb. Hesmer has now played in 12 games and has a 0.94 g.a.a. with 36 saves for the 10-3 Deacons. Haefner made 11 saves and gave up two goals in Penn's 1-2 loss to Maryland. Haefner now has a 1.03 g.a.a. in 10 games and has made 53 saves for Penn, which is 4-5-2. In the same game, Sumed had an assist for Maryland and now has 6 goals and three assists in 12 games for the Terps, which are 13-1. No players on the Watch List or our suggestions play tonight. I'll update the stats early next week.
Yes I believe "V" committed to SLU prior to the McDonalds All-Star game but not before playing for Busch. Basically what I'm saying is that Ibesivic was not a part of some super secret covert recruiting operation conducted by the dark and sinister clandestine SLU coaching staff. What makes you think that it wasn't a perfectly easy slam dunk decision for Vedad to sign with SLU? Let's look at some of Vedad's benefits of playing @ SLU, * Play @ Home in front of family and friends. * Play on arguably the finest home field surface in the NCAA and quite frankly one of the finest playing fields in the country. * Play in front of some of the largest if not the largest home crowds in the NCAA. * Play for the program with the most NCAA Championships (10) with a good chance to be one of the home town hero's that brings home the elusive 11th NCAA Championship. * Play for arguably the top coaching tandem in NCAA soccer with Mike Sorber and Dan Donigan. * Play for a team that gets a great deal of local TV and Newspaper coverage. * Play for a program that produces many MLS players (behind only UCLA and Virginia I believe) with the certainty of being seen by all sorts of pro scouts. * Immediately jump into the starting line-up and be the go to player on a prime time team. * Play against top level competition. Come to think of it recruiting @ SLU is a pretty easy job....
I'm going to take exception to some of this. I was at Hermann for the U17 qualifiers in 01. It's a nice stadium but if you think there aren't plenty others like it in college ball, you're mistaken. Stanford, North Carolina, Clemson, Maryland, UConn, Indiana, SMU, San Diego and, yes, Virginia, all have very nice college stadiums. As for the playing surface, it's nice but it ain't the greens at Augusta. I won't argue this but the folks at UConn might. If you're gonna bring up the ten NCAA championships, you ought to have full disclosure and mention the last one was in 1973, 11 years before Vedad was born. As for being the hometown here that gets 11, that is certainly a great sales pitch. But, the odds of them getting it this year are slim as they are too young and inconsistent and next year, much of the D will be gone and need to replaced. And, if Vedad is as good as we all think he is - he impressed me the one time I saw him play - the odds of him being around for more than two years are pretty slim. No argument from me there. Unlike a lot of college coaches, these guys played the game at a high level and are both bright and know how to convey what they know. He'll be seen by a lot of pro scouts, no doubt, but that could be said about any elite program and the Big East, ACC and western schools get scouted more (the latter by the two west coast MLS teams) just because of georgraphy and limited scouting budgets. He'll get looked at, but there will be more scouts at the ACC and Big East Tournaments than the C-USA one. As for producing MLS players, SLU is behind more than UVa and UCLA. Programs with alums currently on MLS rosters: UNC (10) David Stokes, Eddie Pope, Kerry Zavagnin, Chris Carrieri, Logan Pause, Mike Ueltschey, Carey Talley, Chris Leitch, Matt Crawford, Eddie Robinson Indiana (7) Mike Clark, Brian Maissoneuve, Dema Kovalenko, Pat Noonan, Chad Deering, Chris Klein, Nick Garcia Washington (6) Chad McCarty, Brandon Prideaux, Wes Hart, Ian Russell, Craig Waibel, Zach Kingsley SLU (5) Brad Davis, Dipsy Selowane, Nick Walls, Brian McBride, Jack Jewsbury Clemson (5) Mark Lisi, Ricky Lewis, Doug Warren, Wolde Harris, Eric Quill Florida International (5) Tyrone Marshall, Jeff Cassar, Steve Ralston, Daouda Kante, Robin Fraser, Stanford (5) Ryan Nelsen, Roger Levesque, Simon Elliott, Taylor Graham, Todd Dunivant Maryland (5) Leo Cullen, Nick Downing, Taylor Twellman, Dan Califf, Phil Salyer I may have forgotten some from each school so that's not exact. There might be other programs with more than five as well. This could be said about many top teams. He'd be starting at Indiana, Southern Methodist, UCLA, UConn etc... There are very few schools that have a duo of forwards better than this guy. Maryland, on paper, did but even that would have been temporary as Mediate and Thompson are under performing. Good one - I bet the coaches at Indiana, Clemson, UCLA, Boston College and SMU wish they had this as part of their sales pitch. Pat Noonan, Chris Klein, Brian Kamler, Mike Slivinski, Steve Ralston, Taylor Twellman - where'd all these guys grow up and where'd they end up going to college. (In fairness to Donnigan, all of these guys went to college before he took over at SLU...) Look, SLU is a very good program but it's not like it's the only program in the country that does good things and has nice facilities.
The facts are the facts. The SLU Field is the finest in NCAA soccer bar none. I haven't seen some of the fields you mention although I do know that Stanford's pitch resembled a cow patch in the 2001 NCAA game vs SLU and last year SLU played on a worn down Maryland field suffering from a severe crown! That means the field is significantly higher in the middle of the playing surface and severly impedes attrative play. The SMU field is absolute CRAP! The SLU Hermann Field is pristine and as flat as a pancake with ZERO CROWN with the dimensions being 120 yards long by 75 yards wide. Quite frankly it is the Augusta of NCAA pitches. Thanks for coining a neat turn of phrase... SLU always is at or near the top in NCAA attendance every year for the last 44 years. Every year. SLU has 10 Championships. Period. The next school has 5. Period. Makes no difference when the last Championship Trophy was hoisted. SLU always competes for the NCAA championship every year. Period. Donigan and Sorber in my mind are the best coaching duo in the NCAA. Vedad will get MLS scouting exposure from SLU road games at top schools like Virginia, Conference Tourney and NCAA Tourney. I never suggested other top programs wouldn't offer the same sort of exposure. Regarding MLS products I was referrring to SLU players that have played or were drafted by MLS. Brian McBride Brad Wilson Shane Battelle Mike Sorber Mark Santel Matt McKeon Jeff Dimaria Brad Davis Dipsy Selowane Jason Cole Jack Jewsbury Kevin Kalish It also doesn't hurt when your Program is associated with former SLU standout players and dignitaries such as, * Dan Flynn the US Soccer Federation Secretary General and # 2 man @ US Soccer is a strong friend and advocate of the SLU program along with guys like, * Former SLU All Ameican and Hermann Trophy Winner, Dan Counce the current Colorado Rapids General Manager. * Former 4 time SLU All American Ty Keough MLS and US Soccer TV Personality and # 1 Media Spokesman. * Former SLU player Bill McDermott. MLS TV Color commentator and SLU Announcer. * Former Coach Harry Keough winner of 5 NCAA Championships and current featured subject of the biggest budgeted Hollywood produced soccer film of all-time featuring 5 Saint Louis players in the movie "Game of Their Lives" soon to be released. Have the name of your Stadium named for the ledgendary Saint Louisian Robert R. Hermann the Founder of the the NCAA soccer trophy equivelent to the Heismann Trophy. Sure "V" would jump into other teams starting line-ups but other teams can't offer the entire package that SLU can. SLU always plays a top notch schedule against a cadre of NCAA tourney bound teams. Of course Saint Louis produces a steady diet of MLS players like the few you mention, Pat Noonan, Chris Klein, Brian Kamler, Mike Slivinski, Steve Ralston, Taylor Twellman and their will be a bunch more coming down the pike like, Jay Alberts, Kevin Hudson, James Twellman, John Diraimondo, Matt Hoff to name just a few! Whats your point? Surely you realize that there are only 9.9 scholarships per school and players naturally are going to want to leave town to forge their own soccer paths. Bottom line no school. As in none. Zero. The null set. Not any other school in the good old entire US of A has the, * # of Championships, (10) (The Most). Twce as many as the nearest school. * Facility, (The Best). *Coaching, (The Best). * Tradition, (The Strongest). * Total NCAA Tourney Apperances, (41) (The Most). * Total NCAA Tournament Games won (63 The Most). *Community Support, (The Best). Why do you struggle so much to understand this material Sandon? We have gone over this before.
soccertom...no argument from me on the SLU program. I think Donigan is definitely one of the best, if not THE best coach in the USA. Sorber is terrific as well. I used to live in St. Louis so I know all about their tradition. But...look at it this way. For all the positives SLU has going for it, it's not in a great part of town, and while the school is good, it ain't UCLA or Stanford or UNC. I'm just saying that if this kid was known outside St. Louis, I think it's a good bet that one of the aforementioned schools, or somebody else, may have signed him. That's not a knock on SLU. I'm just pointing out the nature of college recruiting, which is really slimey. I've seen you guys play this year, and Vedad is outstanding with great potential. I'm sure Donigan didn't do anything any other coach wouldn't have done. Simply, my point is this: college recruiting is a nasty business.
Actually the neighborhood around the SLU campus is dramatically improved over the last 10 years with SLU pumping millions of investment dollars all over town and gobbling up dozens of buildings and surrounding propeties while building new facilities all over campus. Clearly SLU isn't as grand as a NC or a Stanford but it is much improved over the last few years. But we are talking soccer here and as far as that goes SLU is the Taj Mahal...
I don't know if I'd go that far, but I'll tell you what...St. Louis is second to none when it comes to Italian restaurants. I miss Cunetto's and Gitto's! And of course, there is only one Ted Drewe's.
Herman Sandon What's the love affair with Memo Azarte UCSB. I've seen him play twice. NO..defense, slow....hides behind the huge forwards, picks up the garbage balls and just kicks the ball towards the goal. In three games, I've never seen him even...once.... present a decent pass.....in fact he lost the ball 9 straight times against USD. He can only play in space....just some fancy footwork at times...... I saw the USD game this year. Kevin Wilson, Matt McCausland and Scott Bucar ate him alive. In fact, he was benched at the end of the first half and pulled before overtime. He would'nt start on USD's midfield. USD lost a game they dominated, just could'nt finish. You need to quit looking at stat's of a player who's team runs up the score on a really weak schedule of teams to pad stats.......
Re: Herman Which was it, two games, or three? I guess those 32 assists in a year and a half of D-I ball are from passes that aren't decent. When UCSB came east this year, he had a goal and two assists against a pair of ACC teams. Those are pretty good numbers. And if San Diego's midfield is so damn good and UCSB only plays weak teams, how come the Gauchos have beaten USD the last two times they've played, including last year in the NCAA Tournament? And, if mighty USD's midfield is so damn good, how come they didn't create any goals in these two games? Look, I'm not going to say this kid is the next great American playmaker. But, averaging as assist a game for a Top Ten team is not a fluke. I'm not going to dispute weather he played badly when you saw him since you were there and I wasn't. But, in the other games he seems to be doing very well so maybe you're just bad luck for him... 'cept on the score board! I think you have a brass pair ragging on the schedule of a team that's beaten and shutout your team in two straight games.
Don't rub it in soccertom. Next thing you're going to tell me that you had dinner on the hill, drinks in the central west end, then partied at Muddy Waters down on the landing!
You know, I'm sort of getting this feeling, more like a hunch, really, that soccertom may, may be a fan of SLU soccer. Maybe.
Updated stats through Sunday night’s game. OFFICIAL WATCH LIST Kevin Ara, Sr. MF, Harvard (6-4-3) 13 games, 4 goals, 2 assists Ryan Cochrane, Jr. D, Santa Clara (11-2-3) 16 games, 1 goal, 0 assists, 0.53 team g.a.a. Clint Dempsey, Jr. MF, Furman (3-7-4) 12 games, 4 goals, 2 assists Ned Grabavoy, Jr. M, Indiana (8-3-4) 15 games, 10 goals, 6 assists Matt Haefner, Sr. GK, Penn (4-6-2) 11 games, 55 saves, 1.02 g.a.a. Will Hesmer, Sr. GK, Wake Forest (11-3) 13 games, 38 saves, 0.86 g.a.a. Sumed Ibrahim, Sr. M, Maryland (14-1) 13 games, 6 goals, 4 assists Antou Jallow, Jr. F, Wisconsin-Milwaukee (12-4-1) 16 games, 6 goals, 2 assists Aaron Lopez, Jr. M, UCLA (14-1) 15 games, 12 starts, 0 goals, 0 assists, 0.36 team g.a.a. Guy Melamed, Jr. D, Boston College (6-6-3) 15 games, 0 goals, 1 assist, 0.68 team g.a.a. Joseph Ngwenya, Sr. F, Coastal Carolina (12-2) 14 games, 14 goals, 11 assists Abe Thompson, Jr. F, Maryland (14-1) 10 games, 4 goals, 4 assists David Wagenfuhr, Sr. D, Creighton (9-3-3) 15 games, 1 goal, 3 assists, 0.62 team g.a.a. Jeremiah White, Sr. F, Wake Forest (11-3) 9 games, 5 goals, 2 assists Chris Wingert, Sr. D, St. John’s (12-4-1) 16 games, 2 goal, 2 assist, 0.89 team g.a.a. “OTHERS” LIST Memo Arzate, Sr. M, UC Santa Barbara (11-2-1) 14 games, 6 goals, 13 assists Scott Buete, Sr. M, Maryland (14-1) 15 games, 3 goals, 2 assists, 0.45 team g.a.a. Knox Cameron, Jr. F, Michigan (12-5) 17 games, 11 goals, 9 assists Adom Crew, Sr. F, Brown (8-3-1) 12 games, 8 goals, 2 assists Adolfo Gregorio, Sr. M, UCLA (14-1) 14 games, 3 goals, 10 assists Alan Gordon, Sr. F, Oregon State (10-4) 14 games, 11 goals, 3 assists Josh Gros, Sr. F, Rutgers (8-4-3) 15 games, 12 goals, 5 assists Ryan Johnson, So. F, Oregon State (10-4) 14 games, 0 goals, 13 assists Trevor McEachron, Jr. D, Old Dominion (14-0) 14 games, 4 goals, 0 assists, 0.21 team g.a.a. Ryan Pore. So. F, Tulsa (10-4-2) 16 games, 15 goals, 7 assists Seth Stamler, D, Maryland (14-1) 15 games, 1 goals, 1 assist, 0.45 team g.a.a. Matt Taylor, Sr. F, UCLA (14-1) 14 games, 13 goals, 5 assist This is one of the toughest seasons in years to pick a winner. Ngwenya’s combination of goals and assists is awesome, but the strength of schedule has to be factored in. Grabavoy and Cameron are having great years in the Big Ten. You could realistically have a situation where one of them wins the award but isn’t even his conference’s POY because the other won one it. Arzate is leading the country in assists and is starting to score goals, too. A strong surge could get it for him. And Ryan Pore – this kid has basically put Tulsa on the map this year and he’s doing it in the same conference that saw Luchi Gonzalez win the Hermann two years ago. If you want to consider a defender, you have to love what McEachron is doing, leading a D that has given up fewer goals (3) than he has scored himself. And bein’ undefeated is pretty good, too. And for those of you that think Buete and Stammler don’t score enough to be considered, it should be noted that each had a goal yesterday in the Terps win at Clemson. Again, I encourage others to nominate players they feel are deserving and why they think they're deserving.
As of 10/20, the Albyn Jones power ratings had Coastal in at #11, with 5 higher ranked teams having lower rated schedules (including Maryland). I don't think you can hold schedule over his head. I've seen a good many of these players in both college and the PDL (including Ngwenya). There's simply no comparison between him, and most, if not all, the players on the list, and that's especially true for the Grabavoys and Camerons. If the award is for the best college players, he's entitled to win hands down, because he's the best college player in the bunch. Unfortunately, I doubt he will win since Coastal isn't among the soccer elite, and as a non American, he won't have many supporters in the voting.
I certainly hope Ngwenya's nationality isn't held against him. At the end of the day, Coastal's schedule may not matter if he is head and shoulders, especially statistically, above the rest of the contenders. Right now, he's among the national leaders in both goals and assists and that's going to be tough to top.
It's fitting that I throw the hat of senior forward Matthew Delicate of VCU into the ring a bit late in the season, as it took Deli awhile to get going. But he's been on a roll now, with all nine of his goals coming in the last nine games. The Rams (12-4) are 8-1 during that stretch, and 26-4-1 when Deli scores during the past 3+ years. He also has added a new demension to his game with eight assists this year after recording no more than two in any of his past three seasons. This past weekend, Delicate assisted on Gonzalo Segares' goal to beat Hofstra in 2OT, then scored both goals in a 2-0 win at Drexel to earn Nat'l Player of the Week honors from College Soccer News. The coaches feel that the way he has been playing, it seems like he can generate a goal almost anytime he's around the ball. Is he better than everyone on Sandon's list earlier in the thread? Probably not. But he absolutely deserves to be considered.
coastal carolina schedule strength With all respect, Dsocc, the rankings u refer to are bogus. Maryland's opponents have a composite record this year of: 147-112-33 according to college soccer.com. Coastal's opponents have a combinde record of: 122-111-33. Coastal plays Radford, Winthrop, Georgia state, Liberty, and VMI. Granted, Ngwenya is a marked man, but what if he played a real schedule. I would say if UCLA played Coastal's schedule, Matt Taylor would have 25 goals or more by now. Ngwenya is a great player, however, he just does not play against tough defenses week in and week out. Coastal has 1 ranked team; Bradley(questionable as they lost to Ohio St and Penn State) on their schedule. Sorry, Coastal just does not compete in the same league as the elite Div 1 programs, and u can play the Xenophobe or race card all u want, but if someone else is named best college player, they probably deserve it.
Re: coastal carolina schedule strength Ngwenya and Taylor both played in the PDL this year, and, while the schedules are probably no more even than NCAA, they do provide some additional, interesting statistics. Ngwenya played for Cape Cod, who won the PDL this year. Taylor played for Orange County, another strong team that were eliminated in the second round of the playoffs, to the Chicago Fire Reserves, the team that Cape Cod beat to win the championship. In 963 minutes, Ngwenya scored 17 goals and collected 2 assists, including one of the two goals in Cape Cod's 2-0 championship victory. Taylor, meanwhile, played 1220 minutes and scored 11 goals and 3 assists (while playing with Juergen Klinsmann, as it happens). So, in winning the PDL championship, Ngwenya produced at about twice the rate that Taylor did (1.59 goals/90 vs. .81). Obviously, the PDL isn't a perfect comparison, but I think it backs up the claim that Ngwenya isn't playing like he is simply because he's facing inferior competition.
Re: Re: coastal carolina schedule strength Thanks. Sort of the point of my original post. I'll also point out that Ngwenya tortured the PDL' s best defensive team in that final game. No disrespect to Matt Taylor, but if you've seen both play, you'd have a difficult time arguing that Ngwenya wasn't significantly better athletically or technically. lastword - Those aren't my numbers, but they are the from same methodology used for ranking college hoops teams in the NCAA tournament. You can say what you like about the "eliteness" of schedules, but based on the results to date, Coastal's opponents have fared comparably well with those of higher ranked teams, save the likes of UCLA, which has the strongest schedule in D1.