Help me fall in love with Oranje

Discussion in 'The Netherlands' started by El Steve, May 29, 2008.

  1. Quote:
    What also counts is that we used to use your cavalry attack tune for an all out attack, with the battle cry "aanvallen!!!" like that of Custers at the Big Horn Creek or something like that. The analogy also fits that we almost never survive that attack

    That actually made me laugh out loud. What would you say is the most often used Dutch supporter's song?


    For the Orange team a strong contender would be: "hup Holland hup, laat de leeuw niet in z'n hempje staan",

    which would translate into "Go, Holland, go, don't let them catch the lion with his pants down", as "in z'n hempje staan" means he's left only wearing his shirt.

    For club songs I would vote for the Feyenoord hymn "Hand in hand", no translation needed.

    Concerning books and articles you should check the titles of the English writer/journalist Simon Kuper.
     
  2. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Frieslander
    I enjoyed the book Brilliant Orange if you're looking for a book about the dutch and their soccer.

    I was very near buying this, but a poster on the first page told me this was, basically, just a compliment towards Ajax's style... so, I remain slightly unconvinced.
    >>>>>

    That was just Johan's reaction as a Twente fan. I disagree with him as the book is much broader than just Ajax. It's important to remember that Rinus Michels who started the total football strategy in the late 1960s was the Ajax manager and also the NT manager in 1974 and also in 1988 when Holland finally won a big trophy (the Euro competition). the book is really good in that it has a lot of interviews with those who played during that era.
     
  3. FCGrunn

    FCGrunn Member

    Oct 30, 2007
    Groningen
    Club:
    FC Groningen
    Nat'l Team:
    --other--
    Yesterday they aired an interview from '99 with Michels and Van Basten about the European Championship in '88. All the goals and interviews are quite familiar of course. But what struck me about Michels and the whole team was that they seemed to be so relaxed about being present at a big tournament. Nobody talked about tactics ("we just have to play better than the competition") and every interview from '88 just oozed a sense of "Well, if somehow we're going to lose, than that's just it isn't it?" No worries at all besides making sure they gave their utmost best on the pitch. No worries about losing either.

    Perhaps that is in line with what's already being said here about the cavalry charge (or the charge of the light brigade, :D); perhaps we can only win something, or either come very very close, by fully accepting the possibility of loss.

    All the fuss about tactics...I think tactics is not what we should primarily be occupied with during the tournament...learning tactics is like riding a bicycle and making love, you learn and than you quickly forget about the technicalities. In footy, tactics should rest beneath the surface of it all, and not be regarded as the panacea as we now so often do.

    I say 2 to 4 strikers depending on whether we are in the offence or not, and with a healthy sense of irrational excuberance we will do just fine.
     
  4. FCGrunn

    FCGrunn Member

    Oct 30, 2007
    Groningen
    Club:
    FC Groningen
    Nat'l Team:
    --other--
    Off topic, but I will be brief:

    Is it regarded elitist to prefer soccer to football in the US? (Not among Latin Americans I hope?)

    I can get an answer from one of those many European amateur anthropologists specialized in US culture, but I tend to take their views with a pinch of salt.

    To be on topic again, I think Oranje should play with the attitude the Yanks displayed in 2002.
     
  5. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Not elitist at all. I've grown tired of American football. It has grown too predictable and the players are not normal looking.
     
  6. FCGrunn

    FCGrunn Member

    Oct 30, 2007
    Groningen
    Club:
    FC Groningen
    Nat'l Team:
    --other--
    No, they all look like Juve players from the late 90's!!! :D
     
  7. Amsteldam

    Amsteldam Red Card

    Oct 5, 2005
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Not to mention the worst kept secret is that 90% of them are on steroids.
    Sorry but you dont get to be 400 lbs, with a 500 lb bench press and run a 4.5 40 yards from wheaties alone.

    Its disgusting to me they went after baseball, and left the NFL alone.
     
  8. El Steve

    El Steve Member

    Sep 7, 2004
    Pittsburgh
    Club:
    Pittsburgh Riverhounds
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The way I typed that out seemed kind of confrontational, the... "I remain unconvinced," but it was late, I had a few beers so the line didn't come out quite right. Was going more for a slightly unsure because of the dissenting opinion, but open to be talked into it.

    After another endorsement, I think I have been.

    I don't think it IS elitist, but I think it is considered by many to be that way. A really good essay about Australia in 'A Thinking Fan's Guide to the World Cup' put the attitude of many on-fans display, the ones that are bigger fans of Aussie rules, and it was very similar to what you hear from a lot of American sports fans.

    There's this thought that soccer is slow, boring, not enough scoring, and non-physical.

    I really did love that team and, to go back to it, I really liked Australia last World Cup for having a very similar attitude. A pretty decent documentary, especially by our standards, of the '02 World Cup titled 'Our Way' (based on a video they had of the team singing Frank Sinatra karaoke) was made for it... lots of interviews, locker room footage and everything.

    That jumped everyones expectations up... team is in a transition right now where a lot of the players are either very old or very young. A lot of players on the verge of becoming key contributors are just starting to establish their selves on an international level.

    Michael Bradley just had a really good season in the Eredivise and expectations have quickly sky rocketed for him after being very modest when he was coming up. Very little hype and being groomed as a d-mid, to scoring 18 goals last season with Heerenveen was a big surprise for a lot of USA fans.

    Probably the best striker in the talent pool is 18 years old... the rest of the central midfield during qualifying is going to be made up similarly.

    I'd just love for the United States to get it's youth set up in order and have some solid direction in terms of player development.

    That's something that the Dutch do that impresses me a lot and I wish we could mimic a little more... maybe Ruud Gullit will rub off on some people while he's around.
     
  9. Eric_the_Orange

    Sep 3, 2005
    As a lifelong Bengals fan, I agree: the Steelers' players are scum. :D

    In all seriousness, I do think they exhibit poorer sportsmanship than is necessary. I respected Bill Cowher and I like Mike Tomlin, but they both seem to groom their players to be trash-talkers first and football players second.

    I've played soccer my whole life, but hockey has always been close in terms of how much I love each. I don't like the clutching and grabbing that the game has been infected with again (the late 90s until the lockout were the worst for that), but I still watch. I'm a Buffalo Sabres fan, but I see the Penguins a lot because of where I live. The Sabres could have used some of Pittsburgh's toughness a season or two ago and they might have themselves a Cup.

    I don't believe there's much of a comparison between the two sports. They're so radically different, and soccer isn't really taken seriously here. Certainly there are fans (many of them), but saying you prefer soccer to American football wouldn't get much of a reaction. Preferring NFL football over college football or vice versa might be more likely to get you called a snob.
     
  10. El Steve

    El Steve Member

    Sep 7, 2004
    Pittsburgh
    Club:
    Pittsburgh Riverhounds
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Both coaches, from everything I have seen, have been very respectful and dedicated. I have no problems with either. Your Bengals :p are just as guilty of the same problem. That's why you see Joey Porter and, whoever that was, getting in a bust up at a casino during the off season.

    Cowher always wanted emotional players who played with their heart out... unfortunately, many of the recent players' hearts aren't exactly in the right place.
    All of the injuries seemed to break up the great balance that the Sabres had last season. Having been at the winter classic, that franchise has some of the best hockey fans I've ever seen... I'd argue they're the best in the USA.



    This actually came up tonight because I was criticizing some Penguins fans for giving up on the season after being down 3-1.

    Obviously, it's not an ideal situation... and logically it's over... but, being a sports fan, you shouldn't rely on logic. Support the team, enter with optimism, and enjoy yourself while supporting.

    Anyways, the usual "********** sport, divers, Euro-trash" comments came up. Then you remind them that you're watching hockey and 75% of the Red Wings are Scandinavian and most of the Penguins call French their first language...

    ...the argument works over to football then and you get in an argument of preference where the "soccer is a ********** sport" arguments come back out.

    Gets really annoying when you're someone who'll argue pretty vigorously over the merits of the game.
     
  11. illjazeera

    illjazeera New Member

    Jan 20, 2007
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EuN2jYDSiL4

    forget the amazing goal, how could you not want to sneak your way into being part of that big beautiful sea of oranje??!!!

    and also heineken, don't forget about heineken.
     
  12. FCGrunn

    FCGrunn Member

    Oct 30, 2007
    Groningen
    Club:
    FC Groningen
    Nat'l Team:
    --other--
    And Grolsch , don't forget about Grolsch.

    Nevertheless I will be serving Warsteiner in my backyard this coming EC, with the possible exception of a Holland vs. Germany (ik wil de goden niet verzoeken)

    Most matches are during the week and Warsteiner is very easy on the head - das Reinheitsgebot ja!
     
  13. FCGrunn

    FCGrunn Member

    Oct 30, 2007
    Groningen
    Club:
    FC Groningen
    Nat'l Team:
    --other--
    Oh it's all the same everywhere. Some of my mates are British/Australian, and you should hear them talk about American Football vis-á-vis Rugby/Aussie Rules. These friends of mine are big w*****s themselves of course... :rolleyes:

    I also tried to watch the superbowl this year, but the game does not 'flow' and I only tend to be interested in what the quarterback is doing. The rest of the players seem to be like pantzered ants crawling about eachother. Nevertheless, I am told the tactics of the game are an art within itself and that is what I find intruiging about the game. Time to buy myself a great handbook! (Any suggestions?)

    Tzun Zu and the art of American Football?
     
  14. El Steve

    El Steve Member

    Sep 7, 2004
    Pittsburgh
    Club:
    Pittsburgh Riverhounds
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    No suggestion really... it is a chess match, in a lot of ways. I just know this from having played a little American football in high school and having watched it all of my life.

    It's more controlled strategy... teams have personalities, like in soccer. You have teams that rely on air attacks by passing, teams that prefer running the ball, teams that mix it up... different formations.

    There are a lot of rules, but also a lot of flexibility in what you can do as long as you can play by those rules. Deception is key... but all of this relies on the coaches. It was different in the 70s and before that.

    Between every play when the teams go to the huddle, a different play is called. At one point, about 60%-70% of these were made by the quarterback... some calls were made from the coaches at the sideline and he was told much of what to try for, but as years have gone on... this has gone away almost entirely except for a few, rare players and during certain situations.

    There are now little radios inside of a players helmet where a coach tells him what play to make each down... if you watch a game, you'll usually see the quarterback outside of the huddle with his hands against his helmet, like he's listening to a cell phone in a crowded bar and desperately trying to make heads or tails of what's going on.
     
  15. aveslacker

    aveslacker Member+

    Ajax
    United States
    Apr 2, 2006
    Near Kamar-Taj
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Strangely enough, as I get older, I begin to appreciate American football more than other American sports, to the point where it is now my second favorite sport after soccer. I admire the courage those players must have to play such a difficult game. Also, the game is so complex that there are an almost infinite amount of things to learn or observe. There are so many subtleties and nuances within the overall game that you could learn something new about the sport every time you watch it.

    However, I will add that the invention of the DVR is the best thing to happen to American football. Now you can start watching the game halfway into it, fast forward through the breaks in the action, and catch up to the end of the game in real time, having spent about half as much time watching. It's also a good sport to watch while ironing clothes: watch a play, iron a shirt, watch another play, etc.

    As far as why one should follow Oranje, I would leave it as follows: Cruijff, Van Basten, Bergkamp, Gullit, Rijkaard, Koeman, Neeskens, Krol, Overmars, Van Persie, Van Nistlerooij -- the Clockwork Orange. What other country in the world could produce a player capable of doing this?
    [youtube]HqEWpHuib9A[/youtube]
    This goal on its own is enough reason to root for Holland.
     
  16. feyenoord_for_life

    feyenoord_for_life New Member

    Aug 12, 2007
    Zoetermeer
    I forgot about this, not sure if it fits into the bad luck or conspiracy theory portion. but cruyff was kidnapped and held at gunpoint before the 78 world cup.

    i really thing there is a higher power making sure we dont win!
     
  17. Eric_the_Orange

    Sep 3, 2005
    That's an interesting point about the flow of the game. Pretty much all American sports (sports that are popular here, like football, baseball, basketball, hockey) are set up with plenty of breaks in the action. I remember growing up and seeing soccer on television for the first time and being surprised they could show an entire half without a single commercial break. Football has so many commercial breaks the games last around three hours (the Super Bowl is closer to four hours sometimes). Baseball is even worse, and can seem to drag on for hours.

    Because of this, I think Americans naturally don't think about the flow or the fact it's broken up by commercials. Commercials are a given, and we sort of focus on the flow within the flow, so to speak.

    As for the complexities of the game, everything happening on the (American) football field is happening for a reason. I certainly understand how it can appear they're all running around like chickens with their heads cut off, but even the players not directly involved in the play are serving a purpose and have a job to do. There's a lot going on, and there's a lot to take in. While there are things I don't like about the game, I've been a lifelong fan and still appreciate it more and more as I grow older.

    Finally, I've never understood the rugby/Australian rules football comparisons with American football. Those, too, are much different than American football. Most of the time, the focus seems to be on toughness of the players, and that rugby players are more so because they don't use pads. I don't play any of the three, but suffice to say you can't be a wimp and play any of them.
     
  18. Eric_the_Orange

    Sep 3, 2005
    I agree about the Bengals; too many character issues the last few years. Marvin Lewis, Bill Cowher, and Mike Tomlin are all so similar in so many ways, and it's surprising that their players act the way they do. But it happens all over the league. It makes you wonder where the game is headed.

    As for the Sabres, the injuries definitely ruined them. I don't blame injuries for last season (there was a lack of toughness and a sense of complacency that got them), but I will go to my grave believing that the 2006 Stanley Cup would have been Buffalo's if not for injuries taking them out. They still nearly beat Carolina as it was, and I think Edmonton was overmatched by both, and there's no doubt in my mind what would have happened had so many key players not gone down, especially on defense. That was the most special team I can remember (even more special than in '99 when they went to the Cup finals).

    Pittsburgh certainly seems up against it now, but anything can happen and often times does. You have to like what they've done and how far they've come. It won't be much consolation if they can't come back, but they ought to contend for years to come.

    And the "soccer is a ******* sport" argument is common (hence why I say soccer isn't taken seriously here). It's unfortunate, but ignorance abounds, and soccer/football is no different. You'll hear soccer is boring from the same person who loves watching golf on television. People just don't understand, and it's unpopular enough that they never have to, even if it is the world's most popular game.
     
  19. johan neeskens

    Jan 14, 2004
    What I've got against it is that it argues that the Dutch would rather see attacking, beautiful football and lose than play rubbish and win. That may be the case in Amsterdam, it sure isn't where I come from, and if you ask a Groningen, Roda, VVV or Omniworld fan, they'll agree with me and not with David Winner. Also most of what he says about Dutch culture is a load of bollix and to me they're the views of someone who has scratched the surface and hasn't gone any deeper. The whole book is full of clichés and describe how people LIKE to think of Dutch football and the Dutch in general, not what Dutch football actually is.
     
  20. johan neeskens

    Jan 14, 2004
    Much better than David Winner but still very Amsterdam-oriented. His story about Holland v Germany at the 88 Euros was spot on I have to say.

    The best Dutch football writers are Matty Verkamman and Auke Kok in my view. Their books probably haven't been translated into English though.
     
  21. To replace American Football I would suggest to go with Rugby. It has the fluid pace of play of soccer, combined with the more physical part of Am Football.
     
  22. AFCA

    AFCA Member

    Jul 16, 2002
    X X X rated
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Iran
    I've never heared a crowd cheer as loudly for certain leg-breaking tackles as at Ajax.

    So no, that is not the case in Amsterdam. Never has been, never will.

    Sure, you'll find plenty of overweight omhoog gevallen businessmen within Ajax' offcial membership ranks who will tell you this BS.

    But who the ******** listens to those greaseballs?
     
  23. johan neeskens

    Jan 14, 2004
    See what's difficult about it is that there's a lot of high-profile Ajax fans like Cheque van Gelder and Youp van 't Hek and they say these things in public and then we all think that's the Ajax opinion in general.
     
  24. aveslacker

    aveslacker Member+

    Ajax
    United States
    Apr 2, 2006
    Near Kamar-Taj
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    There's actually a few American football players (Dan Hodge and Dan Lyle, for example) who have come across the pond and had good careers as rugby players. Dan Lyle was pretty good. There's a lot to learn tactically, and the conditioning is different, but running with the ball is quite similar (except for the fact that, after the tackle, the gridiron player wants to push the ball forward and the rugby player backward). I've also heard that wrestling is a good sport for a rugby player.
     

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