Have we seen the peak in oil yet?

Discussion in 'Finance, Investing & Economy' started by Matt in the Hat, Mar 10, 2005.

  1. Txtriathlete

    Txtriathlete Member

    Aug 6, 2004
    The American Empire
    Hate to make this political, but depending on how the US plays its cards against Iran going nuclear, I think a 70 or 80 is very close.
     
  2. Anthony

    Anthony Member+

    Chelsea
    United States
    Aug 20, 1999
    Chicago
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    There is a theory called, I believe, Hubbert's Peak. Hubbert was an oil economist who discovered back in the 1950s that oil companies, for tax reasons, tended to delay the reporting of new finds. His theory was that most of the major oil discoveries were made by 1935 or so, and he predicted that domestic US production would peak at 10M bpd in 1969 (it actually hit 10M bpd in 1970).

    There also are oil economists who claim that the Saudis and other OPEC have been overreporting reserves in order to have a higher production quota, which they then violate anyway.

    Add to that growing demand by China and a weaker dollar, and you have increased the price of oil.

    I actually hope oil orices continue to increase. First off, so far, the economy has proven able to absorb the increases, partially due to the fact that oil is still cheaper on an inflation adjusted basis that during the 1979 oil shock.

    Secondly, as oil prices increase, Canadian oil becomes economically viable to extract.

    And finally, as prices increase, it gives an economic incentive to alternatives. The technology is there to get ourselves off of this oil additican, but it is currently expensive. And it is not just converting our cars, it also is the distirbution system that needs to be built (for the past 100 years, we have been building a distirbution system of pipelines, tank farms, and gas stations -- this will have to be replaced or converted).

    Anyway, we will see what happens.
     
  3. Pauncho

    Pauncho Member+

    Mar 2, 1999
    Bexley, Ohio
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The two great economic downturns of my lifetime were the recessions of 1973-4 and 1979-81. The 1973-4 recession was worse than the depressions of 1837 and 1897, but by WWII the events of 1932 had given the word "depression" a bad name. The conventional wisdom is that both of these downturns were precipitated by "oil shocks." If anything, the economy today is more, not less, dependent upon abundant petroleum use. A barrel of oil now costs $65. That isn't somebody's hairbrained prediction, that's yesterday's actual market price. The stock markets, on both sides of the Atlantic, are at post tech bubble highs.

    I don't get it.
     
  4. rkim291968

    rkim291968 New Member

    Oct 6, 2004
    CA, USA
    I voted for $70 but after I have already seen 65. In future years to come, I think it will go to 100 in 2 - 3 years. I have mixed feelings about the oil price going through the roof. It's not good for economy but I hope it cools down US's appetite for oil guzzling cars. Around my block, there must be 5 - 6 houses with hummers.
     
  5. prk166

    prk166 BigSoccer Supporter

    Aug 8, 2000
    Med City
    If you really think oil's going to hit $70, 80, 90, whatever a barrel, put your money where your mouth is and buy oil futures.
     
  6. Anthony

    Anthony Member+

    Chelsea
    United States
    Aug 20, 1999
    Chicago
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Part of it is that accounting for inflation, gas and oil is still cheaper than those shocks. Also, the price increased gradually this time, allowing the economy to absorb it and adjust. In 1973 the oil was literally turned off instantaneously, and in 1979, it was similar.

    I would also imagine that the use of petroleum has changed. Very little oil (something like 3% in the US) is used today for electricity generation. In the US, 65% is used for transporation. The rest is for heating, and various other commercial and industrial uses. This might also be a reason for the difference.

    One reason gas price increases have outstripped petroleum increases is that there are also concerns about refinery capacity in the US. No new refinery has been built here in something like 20 years. A couple of big refineries are having difficulties working to capacity.

    Personally, I hope the market allows an adjustment, so that people turn around and burn their SUVs because SUVs are unpatriotic.
     
  7. eric_appleby

    eric_appleby Member+

    Jun 11, 1999
    Down East
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It'll make a run at $70, then maybe ease off.

    Eventually, the rising prices are going to be inflationary.
    Interest rates will continue to rise.
    And we get a brand spanking new recession.

    Which will hurt the Chinese economy.

    Then , demand falters, and the price of oil falls.

    Rising oil prices do two things.
    It spurs new production. I for one don't buy the hype that the world is going to run dry of oil in a few years.
    And, oil will eventually hit a price that starts to seriously dent demand.
     
  8. GoldFinger

    GoldFinger New Member

    Jun 19, 2004
    It is not necessarily inflationary. Since high energy prices hurts demand (less disposable income), prices will not necessarily rise. If your heating, ac, fuel bills all go up, you're less likely to consume at the same rate thus putting downward pressure on prices. That helps to explain why oil has doubled but prices have had a very low increase.

    Just the other side of the argument. I think they both have merit.
     
  9. Anthony

    Anthony Member+

    Chelsea
    United States
    Aug 20, 1999
    Chicago
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    One thing to remember is that most oil consu,med in teh US is connected to transportation. According to Set America Free, only 3% of oil consumed in the US is used for electricity generation. 68% is used in transportation.

    [​IMG]

    So the real issue with oil and gas price increases is the increased cost of transportation. The key needs to be finding a way to reduce oil consumption in transportation. That will be difficult. Suburbs and the enwer US cities are designed for driving, not walking or mass transport. As for the rural areas, forget it.

    If I were king of America, I would address this by focusing short term on hybrid technology, use of alcohol based fuels and relaxing air standards on disel for a time. Long term, I would focus on alternative energy, and forcibly move people back into the cities.

    If I were king of America, I also would force Michael Moore to lose weight, declare the NY Yankees terrorists and engage in regime change in Metro Nation.
     
  10. rkim291968

    rkim291968 New Member

    Oct 6, 2004
    CA, USA
    Why not?

    If I were an absolute ruler of America, I would ban any car that gives less than 20 miles per gallon. Goodbye and good riddance to hummers, F150s, and similar cars that are everywhere in the city. :cool:

    I would also ban any vehicle racing. Goodbye Indy500! :D
     
  11. CrewDust

    CrewDust Member

    May 6, 1999
    Columbus, Ohio
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'm sticking by my $80 prediciton.
     
  12. Grouchy

    Grouchy Member+

    Evil
    Apr 18, 1999
    Canal Winchester
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Our local radio had a gentleman who discussed the "refinery issue", stating that it's not an issue because it's cheaper for companies like Exxon (the source of information) to purchase refined product outside the USA then bring it in; i.e. the United States does not need more refineries.

    They also stated that 90% of the product is purchased a year in advance and about 10% is "on the spot" market. Also, that "zone pricing" - i.e. why the same gas is cheaper a couple miles down the road, is standard practice with grociers, merchants, etc.

    As with anything nowadays you don't know who to believe, but I tend to think there is a little truth to everything. As long as people are willing to buy it they will pay for it.
     
  13. Dammit!

    Dammit! Member

    Apr 14, 2004
    Mickey Mouse Land
    Some stock guy on the radio said that, from a technical analysis, the support line is at $65 and if it goes under that, it will drop below $60 soon. But if it has support at $65, it could bounce up above $70, easy.
     
  14. Real Ray

    Real Ray Member

    May 1, 2000
    Cincinnati, OH
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I got this from an article in the recent Atlantic Monthly:
     
  15. IASocFan

    IASocFan Moderator
    Staff Member

    Aug 13, 2000
    IOWA
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Gas is still half the price of European gas!! :eek:

    We need to find ways to cut back and reduce demand.
     
  16. rkim291968

    rkim291968 New Member

    Oct 6, 2004
    CA, USA
    At $70/barrell of oil & $3.18 cents/gallon (in California) it won't take too long for people to cut back ... :)
     
  17. Anthony

    Anthony Member+

    Chelsea
    United States
    Aug 20, 1999
    Chicago
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Which is why I hope the government does nothing to really effect oil/gas prices. The higher it goes the more people will trash unneeded SUVs and reduce consumption. Oil used to be used for electricity generation. During previous oil shocks, in the US, electric companies found alternatives. Now transportion alternatives become viable.
     
  18. Txtriathlete

    Txtriathlete Member

    Aug 6, 2004
    The American Empire
  19. Sachin

    Sachin New Member

    Jan 14, 2000
    La Norte
    Club:
    DC United
    I remember reading somewhere that if gas prices had kept up with inflation over the past 30 years, gas would be somewhere close to $4.50 a gallon.

    Thank Adu I took another job that is a short drive from home and allows me to carpool with my wife. We fill up one car weekly and the other monthly, unless we take a long trip.

    Sachin
     
  20. TOTC

    TOTC Member

    Feb 20, 2001
    Laurel, MD, USA
    Thank Adu?

    I just started taking MARC this morning. No gas!
     
  21. Anthony

    Anthony Member+

    Chelsea
    United States
    Aug 20, 1999
    Chicago
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Well, I bought a new car in February and have still yet to break 1000 miles.
     
  22. Chicago1871

    Chicago1871 Member

    Apr 21, 2001
    Chicago
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Bad news from oil companies. Dozens of oil platforms have been damaged, some severely. At least one was found floating 17 miles away. I fully expect to be paying $4/gal for gas by next week.

    The scary thing isn't the upward movement of gas, but the frightening possibility it might not move down all that much in the near future, if ever.
     
  23. Sachin

    Sachin New Member

    Jan 14, 2000
    La Norte
    Club:
    DC United
    On the other hand, shale-extracted oil may be the next step.

    Some of this reminds of the Mesabi Range storry. For those of you that don't know, the Mesabi Range was a formerly rich area of iron ore. Sometime around 1950, a top businessman said there was enough iron there to last for 1,000 years. A few years later, production peaked and ended in the 1980s, for the most part. But we've substituted aluminum and plastics for steel to the point where steel is relatively cheap by historical standards. I wonder if the same will happen with oil.

    Oh well.. my investment in Evergeen Solar is up 150% in a year.

    Sachin
     
  24. Chicago1871

    Chicago1871 Member

    Apr 21, 2001
    Chicago
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Heard about this a couple years ago. Interesting to see that is now a feasible option...almost.
     
  25. Sachin

    Sachin New Member

    Jan 14, 2000
    La Norte
    Club:
    DC United
    I don't want to get into it on this forum, but the geopolitical aspects of shale-oil production would be as momentus as the energy aspects.

    Sachin
     

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