If Harrison does fail, the Meadowlands is still unacceptable. Metro Stadium or not. We will still be second class citizens in someone else's backyard. We'll still have to pay those outragous fees for Parking, etc. I don't know about anyone else, but if the Metros stay in the Meadowlands (Stadium or not), the Metros are the ones Dead, to me.
Publicized, "Official", breakdown for Frisco: $65MM total project includes stadium, 17 fields, parking, infrastructure, improvements, office building(s)... Lamar - $10M cash up front $55M in 30-year bonds backed by: Collin County - $10M in TIRZ revenues... (TIRZ = tax-increment refinance zone, designates large portion of all taxes generated in that zone to be diverted to pay off the bond obligation instead of said tax revenues going to the county). Frisco City - $15M in sales tax revenue... (max sales tax rate in Texas is 8.25%; all Texas municipalities have option of using the last 1% for projects at their discretion or not at all. This is how Arlington funded the The Ballpark (now Ameriquest Field). Frisco ISD - $15M in school tax revenue... they already had $13M set aside to build a new Gridiron stadium for their high schools before this deal was put in front of them. +++++++++ All told, the stars aligned to get the deal done. But I will say this, some of the similarities and key learnings from McKinney and Frisco are applicable for you guys... (side note: Lamar put $25MM on the table for McKinney...) Any commissioned study will return results in line with the desired end product of those commissioning the study. The first study done by Collin County in 2000 showed favorable. McKinney City people decided they didn't want to have the stadium built in their jurisdiction if they couldn't control it, so then, under the auspices of the first study, they took control of the project, realized they couldn't get it done themselves without the Counties' help, and then killed it. In order to do this, USING THE EXACT SAME DATA, they had a second study created to refute the first study. Deal dies. Frisco steps up to the plate. More synergy and opportunity allows Lamar's chunk to actually FALL from $25MM to $10MM as outlined above. Same guy who did the second study, does a third study, this time the Frisco-Commissioned Study SUPPORTS the revenue economics, again USING THE EXACT SAME DATA. If you don't have inside access, if you are not making pests of yourselves with the freeholders, the city, your state reps, and if you are relying solely on MFO for your data, you are wasting your time. You have to be there every step of the way, making sure that those on the inside know there are Free Agents, rogue forces, who are following very closely what is happening, and that regardless of outcome, the REAL STORY is known to those who have no motivation to keep it quiet. We did this in McKinney and Frisco, and while those deals were going to die and succeed regardless of anything we did, we made sure that everyone involved knew that we knew what they knew, often before they knew it, and this snowballed to the point where key players were calling us to let us know key inside developments before they became public. The bottom line is that the battle is won or lost before it ever enters the public record, and it is naiive and futile to belive otherwise. The empty, broken record of Nick should be proof enough. Quit asking for the data. GO DEMAND IT. File the FOIA for all the studies. Even if it was only presented or discussed in closed sessions, they are required by law to release it, and redact those portions relating to Legal advice or Legal obligation. They can not keep private any economic figures commissioned with The People's money. And that is where the truth will lie. If the study(s) have favorable economic figures, that will reflect an in-favor bias of those who commissioned the study. The deal will find a way to happen. If the study does not have favorable economics, that will reflect a pre-determined negative bias on the part of those who commissioned the study. Screw Nick. Get the data yourselves. You are not only Constituents, You are the KEY STAKEHOLDERS. You have collectively invested millions in Metro the Franchise. If your Leadership is not representing you effectively, Represent Yourselves. -bs
I wonder if the NYC 20012 bid was a stronger, if they could possibly find a way to wedge the Harrison stadium in as a venue-with more juice behind it to get it built. Although the final is slated for Giants Stadium, the prelims will be played at, Rutgers Stadium; Michie Stadium in West Point; and the Yale Bowl in New Haven. Harrison would be better than any of these sites in terms of public transport. If there was a more realistic shot at 2012 (IMO NYC is 3rd at the moment)...eh, just thinking
I'm guessing parking at Harrison will be $10 or more, too. The big difference would be that a lot more people could take public transportation.
The loss of support of the state speaker for Hudson County is troubling. He said the "other municipalities" are having issues with the plan. Hudson County http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/34/34017.html Population, 2000 608,975 http://www.fact-index.com/h/ha/harrison__new_jersey.html Harrison is a town located in Hudson County, New Jersey. As of the 2000 census, the town had a total population of 14,424. So Harrison will depend on the support of the large share of the county population living outside of the city limits. We just don't know what's going on. And Nick S is not commenting yet!
We're f00ked. I was always worried about who would put up for a stadium? AEG is going to either have to pay 90% of it or pull up and move. brushes sands - one huge difference between NY/NJ and any other place are is the complete and utter lack of land that has not already been built upon. It really puts projects like this at the mercy of politicians and NIMBYs. IOW, it would take a place like Bridgeview going all out. If it's not Harrison, I don't know who else will step up to the plate. Newark? Nowhere in NY. MEadowlands we STILL won't control our revenue streams. It'll be EXACTLY like GS right now with 60,000 fewer seats and no FieldTurf (I hope).
Just my 2 cents, and plugged nickle on the subject... Honestly Speaking, I think the MFO needs an enema. Clean them all out. Hire young people who are smart enough to leave certain aspects of the team alone. And to the fans. Secondly, start looking elsewhere to build a stadium. If Harrison/Newark really wants them, then make them fight for them. Look at towns like Montclair, or Wayne. As long as its near the train stations. Put the Stadium like a mile from the Wayne Station on 23, put a bunch of bars and restauraunts along the way. You got urself a connection with the community. And it really doesn't bother people since its right near mass transit, bus or train. And has easy access to the Highways. Very little needed in Capital improvement. What town would not want this? I honestly am getting the feeling that MLS must move further out into the suburbs to build, and stop looking in Urban Areas, theres too much to fight to start there.
I still favor Aqueduct -- and maybe if Metro were to look deeper into the Jersey burbs, expansion in NYC might be a possibility in 4 years. I like Aqueduct being right off the A Train, plus the area could use a shot in the arm/ass/head -- take yer pick a new team and stdium might bring. A Columbus-style venue would work fine. There is probably a good reason why it hasn't been offered as a reasonable alternative all along. I suppose a deal can't be done there..
The politicians woulf rather have office space/retail/housing there - basically anything but a soccer stadium. They can make more money off of it. There's probably someting in the works (and I agree, I'd love to use the land Acqueduct isn't using, but I've given up on that a long long time ago.) Of course there would be a certain amount of irony if Metro would play next to steaming piles of horse turds, but I digress
In general, I strongly oppose municipalities paying to build stadiums for private corporations. Helping out with infrastructure - especially if it will benefit the community outside of the stadium - is something else. I know municipalities give tax breaks to companies that build facilities within their borders, and I think they should cut that out, too. (There's a case in Illinois now where a company took the tax break and now, several years later, is closing the factory those tax breaks helped finance.) Basically, I think corporations should spend their own money on projects that will benefit them, not my money. I know some will object that in the real world that's just not possible. Crap. Of course it's possible. All it takes is some guts and vision on the part of politicians. I want a Metrostars stadium as much as anyone, but if AEG would build the damn thing themselves, they would not be at any politician's mercy. They could put it where they wanted, build it as they pleased, operate it to their own benefit, and ******** the politicians. They wouldn't even have to build the whole thing all at once. European teams routinely develop or redevelop their grounds in stages. Put up one big permanent stand and 3 temporary ones. Then each year or so, replace one temporary stand with one permanent one, until the project is finished. I don't see why that wouldn't work. I know this isn't going to happen. Sports companies are addicted to public financing for their private playgrounds and have come to think that they are entitled to it. As long as that's the case, as long as some local government is willing to spend millions to build a toy for a billionaire, it's going to be very difficult for any other government to refuse on principle. (When the San Francisco Giants built their new baseball stadium largely with their own money, the rest of Major League Baseball was aghast and furious; since, if the Giants could do it, maybe people would start wondering why everyone else couldn't do it, too.) Giants Stadium sucks for MLS games, and the NJSEA treats us like unwanted partycrashers. Harrison would be ideal. So why not insist that AEG pay for it themselves? They could afford it, they just don't want to. Easy for me to spend someone else's money, but they want to spend mine, so fair's fair. I just think we need to change the terms of the debate, so that the default is always that a team is expected to pay for its own shiny new building, and public financing becomes the oddity.
one feature here though isn't public financing as much as is it is using the govt's "good name" to get better loans (lower interest). teams are safer having the govt own the facility or else they'll be a target of taxation these facilities can have "public uses" though I know they really aren't used that way. It's a shame smaller markets get bullied into paying the whole share of such facilities while larger markets are a drag on the league (talking NHL, NFL, MLB, NBA) and don't face the "pay or relocate" threat. I'm curious why AEG hasn't figured out the politics of this and pressed forward a solution sooner. I know precedence is an issue, but getting this done is one of the top priorities of the league. now most of the others are being answered - labor agreement, reserve league, etc. Delay in finalizing this agreement and "cememnting" the leagues future success is annoying quite a few here! I'd really like to know how far apart AEG and HCIA really are. It's getting easier and easier to blame Nick S. I hope things work out so that this market doesn't see the attrition going on in NE.
The thing is, every other place IS moving well forward in getting their stadiums with the exception of San Jose/Houston and Metro. (not including KC and NE here because their owners own the satdiums.)
http://www.fieldofschemes.com/ $850m in stadiums for Jersey? New Jersey state senate president Richard Codey, set to take over as acting governor once James "I am a gay American" McGreevey steps down next week, has proclaimed that he wants to build $850 million in new stadiums at the Meadowlands sports complex for the New York Giants, New York/New Jersey MetroStars, and an unspecified minor-league team. Codey was vague about financing details beyond indicating that the teams would be asked to pay the bulk of the cost: "The Giants have indicated to me that building a new stadium is their first option. I've said to them, if they pay for it, they can run it." As you may recall, the MetroStars have been working on a $160 million soccer stadium plan in Harrison, N.J. (across the river from Newark), but Codey declared those talks dead this week, saying, "The county doesn't want to back these bonds." Harrison Redevelopment Authority director Peter Higgins retorted that this was "nothing more than a temporary setback." As always, take all this with the requisite grains of salt until you can see the green of somebody's greenbacks.
Let's see now. They could: - Up their share of the cost to build a proper footy ground for a location that's convenient for transportation, critical mass, development, prestige, etc. Or - Continue to pay 250G a game at the Swamp, with no REAL prospect of controlling more of their revenues, with fans suffering the indignity of being treated like human trash. Yeah, really tough choices!
ESPN chat, Stone says finalized by Feb or heads roll. I'm impressed though I'd say Jan 15. http://proxy.espn.go.com/chat/chatESPN?event_id=6465 johnny g (kearny, nj): stoner, What in the sam hell is going on in NY/NJ? Now, Harrison seems dead. What a bunch of bums. They can all eat shiite if you ask me. After the Rapids announcement early this week, it is apparent that everyone but our East Coast teams can push through a new stadium. DC, more than ever, had better get a stadium. What are they going to do next year? Are they really going to be playing on dirt? Be gats. Rob Stone: (6:32 PM ET ) Let's not lose our apples here...I was just as shocked and PO'd as you probably were when you heard the news, but then I re-read it...I get the sense the Governor to be was just shooting off the hip, trying to save the Meadowlands complex, and had not done any research at all on the Metros situation. Having said that,can they put a shovel in that dirt already and quit tormenting us! If this does not get resolved by February, heads should roll at Metro HQ's.
Um, Rob Stone was giving his own opinions. "should" being the operative word here. I wish it was AEG laying down the LAW. don't get my hopes up dude.
I know Stone doesn't speak for AEG. Just was a pleasantly surprised a little to see him make such a statement (being THE MLS ESPN2 play-by-play announcer). He has no pull. But getting a media consensus questinong the Metrostars Front Office is a good thing.
FOIA FOIA FOIA FOIA Until you start making everyone involved, no matter who they are, feel the heat of your breath, they will fear no one, and act accordingly. The least you can do is make sure EVERYONE involved feels and shares your pain if they end up tanking the deal. You have NOTHING to gain by standing down. You have NO REASON to listen to Nick if he tells you to keep quiet. What's he gonna do, not take your money? Ban everyone in New Jersey for investigating their own government, and insuring that everyone involved is going to be exposed regardless of the outcome? And if you're going to ban yourselves and not buy tix, what do you have to lose? GET A POUND OF FLESH from anyone and everyone that you can. TAKE THEM DOWN WITH YOU. Someone on this list has a connection with people in "The Business". And I"m not talking about the Soccer Business. I'm talking about those types of people who are featured in numerous movies and TV shows, especially an emmy-winning cable channel drama. In the name of St. Gaetjens, why on earth haven't you gone to that channel to get the score with Harrison? Don't even post it, just email through several layers, and keep that backchannel working offline. Take appropriate public action according to The Score you get from the backchannel. You want to find out what's going on, and you don't want to file an FOIA? In Joisy, of all places, THERE IS another option. GET CREATIVE. GET MEAN. TAKE NO PRISONERS. SCREW NICK. -bs
Randall's Island... refurb the ped bridges, or build it on the north end so it's close to the Brook Avenue stop on the 6 train. Flushing/Corona... Willetts Point/Shea area on the 7, or Jewel Avenue, with access to the E/F/G/R/V trains. Coney... I'm sure there are reasons these won't work. I just want to hear the objections. I have a hard time believing that if AEG and MLS are really as serious as they claim to be about Gotham, that they won't get NY City to give them an appropriate parcel, and build at AEG cost a 20,000 seat temp-bleacher "pack-em-in" ground. I've seen the numbers. The actual hard cost, from scratch, to build 20,000 seats with plumbing for the restrooms and lockerrooms, is $15MM. This includes a press box, and all the electronics, the lighting system, the whole nine yards. Make it $20MM factoring city infrastructure needs, utility rerouting, etc. The key is it has to be in walking distance of the train. Some train. Any train. But there have got to be neighborhoods in the boroughs that would kill for the economic impact. You need a parcel of land, near a train, that is 3 acres wide and deep. That's it. Here's a picture to help: http://www.cockeyed.com/inside/acre/acre_illustrated.html If it costs $20MM to build a barebones "MetroDen", and Metro loses, say, $250K per game using the Swamp, if you consider a home schedule of 16 fixtures/year, then the ROI is 5 years. I'm sure my math ain't perfect, but there is compelling data to take to the Boroughs. If you live in the Boroughs, get on the phone in the morning to your local leaders. Talk it up!! And I know it's heresy to the NJ Metro fanbase, but you can't tell me there isn't a single plot of suitable land SOMEWHERE down the line on the LIRR. I know it's east, but again, if you can Path to the City, you can LIRR east. You can't go north, Westchester and their ilk won't have you under any circumstance, and Staten access is the worst of all options. Help AEG. Help 42nd Street. Bring them ideas. Bring them options. And by all means, PUT THE PRESSURE ON HARRISON FROM ALL SIDES. Get on Channel 1 whenever and wherever you can. The Post loves dirt. Start slinging some. In the immortal words of Colonel X (i.e., Fletcher Prouty).... STIR THE $HIT$TORM -bs ps - if you've never gone over Nick's head to Cohen, now's the time.
AEG has access to plenty of money to pay for these stadium projects. What they want here, isn't just any financing, they want tax exempt financing. Municipalities can issue tax exempt bonds and corporations can't. As a result, muni bonds pay 30% lower rates. The structure of these deals (owned by municipality, leased back to operator, repayment revenue sources,...) is all designed to make the project bonds qualify for tax exempt status. I'm fairly certain, that AEG would be economically willing to provide guarantees on these bonds that would virtually eliminate the credit risk to Harrisson. Unfortunately, I think those guarantees would kill the tax-exempt status of the project.