Harmse and Larentowicz ejections: the new Red Card standard in MLS

Discussion in 'MLS: General' started by art, Apr 6, 2008.

  1. art

    art Member

    Jul 2, 2000
    Portland OR
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    discuss
     
  2. Corwin_of_Amber

    Corwin_of_Amber New Member

    Aug 3, 2007
    Austin
    Re: Kevin Harmse is a complete twat

    Seconded. (raises hand)
     
  3. The Devil's Architect

    Feb 10, 2000
    The American Steppe
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Re: Kevin Harmse is a complete twat

    To put this in perspective, his tackle was no better or worse than Larentowicz' tackle in the Fire/Revs game for which he was sent off.

    If going in with your foot over the top of the ball seems to be the new standard for seriously foul play, then Jeff's ejection isn't quite so out of line, which is fine by me.

    Perhaps this will translate not only to fewer injuries in league play, but less cautions/ejections in CONCACRAP tournament play
     
  4. Corwin_of_Amber

    Corwin_of_Amber New Member

    Aug 3, 2007
    Austin
    Re: Kevin Harmse is a complete twat

    The thing with Kevin Harmse is that he was a red card waiting to happen before the, apparent, institution of more stringent refereeing. On top of that, he's apparently a disciple of Rivaldo, circa World Cup 2002.
     
  5. schafer

    schafer Member+

    Mar 12, 2004
    Re: Kevin Harmse is a complete twat

    I have to agree, unfortunately. Not only was going over the top like that absolutely ridiculous, but from TFC's perspective there's no need to go diving in on the opposition's CB(I think) when he's standing in his own half. It's not even 'good' enforcing, ffs (although it's been discussed on the TFC boards the uselessness of having an enforcer without any skilled players to protect).
     
  6. arkjayback

    arkjayback Member

    Mar 29, 2008
    Le Mars, IA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Re: Kevin Harmse is a complete twat

    Exactly, Larentowicz being sent off may be a little harsh, but it sent the perfect message. And yes, Harmse is stupid.
     
  7. Ismitje

    Ismitje Super Moderator

    Dec 30, 2000
    The Palouse
    Club:
    Real Salt Lake
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I shifted the title somewhat (okay, a lot!) to make this a more non-Rivalries type of thread, as the discussion subject as it emerged is worthwhile.
     
  8. ianai

    ianai Member

    Aug 18, 2007
    Hampton, VA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It's good to crack down on these things, but you've got to have some consistency. Look at Chivas vs. RSL last night, there were some definite Red's in that match if Larentowicz ejection was deserved. Plus, an early yellow for a dirty tackle, and then multiple equal or worse tackles that went unpunished entirely.

    I still don't think Larentowicz should have been sent off at this stage in the game. It's funny as well, because later in the match I would have viewed that as an offense worthy of a red, but that would have been largely dependant on Larentowicz' demeanor throughout the game. I think as a match progresses, it is easier to assess individual players intent on tackles, which is generally why Red's aren't given out early in matches.

    I'd have given him a yellow and a very stern talking to rather than a straight red minutes into the match. Let him know that he's' a tackle away from being gone, but don't disrupt the match so drastically that early on unless it is a really malicious tackle.
     
  9. DeAdZomBie

    DeAdZomBie New Member

    Jul 15, 2007
    harmse whats the last player to have possesion of the ball the other player came into challenge him and talk about simulation. whats with this coming up and pushing a player over and not being red carded are they allowing this in the league now.
     
  10. Elninho

    Elninho Member+

    Sacramento Republic FC
    United States
    Oct 30, 2000
    Sacramento, CA
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I didn't watch the DCU-TFC game, but having watched Harmse play for the Galaxy all of last season, I'm skeptical when anyone says he didn't deserve a red card. We sent him packing because he was a red card waiting to happen... and reading the DCU-TFC post-match quote sheet, I see that even his coach thought the play was indefensible.
     
  11. firefan2001

    firefan2001 Member+

    Dec 27, 2000
    Oswego, Illinois
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    What's the difference if it's 7th minute or the 87th minute, if you commit a red card tackle then it doesn't matter when it happens.
     
  12. Shopping Cart Man

    Sep 21, 2006
    Jacksonville, FL
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    But this wasn't a certain red card tackle. It was more like an orange card tackle, where both a yellow and a red are justifiable.

    Red cards aren't delivered to just one player; they're delivered to that player's team. Borderline tackles like the one Lawenewits delivered can justify putting a team one man down for 30 minutes, or even 60 minutes, but not 80+ minutes.
     
  13. SideshowBob

    SideshowBob Member

    Jan 12, 2007
    Maryland
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Agreed. If the ref felt that was a red card worthy (and I think it was a reasonable conclusion to make given the play), then the time of the game is irrelevant. I don't really buy the "it was early in the game" concept -- that just means that players will make it a point to make hard, potentially injury-producing, tackles early in the game without fear of major harm to their teams. Cracking down on that is a good thing.
     
  14. lurking

    lurking Member+

    Feb 9, 2002
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Larentowicz tackle was a red card tackle. That it didnt connect does not change the effect that its exceedingly dangerous. It isnt a matter of justifying putting a team down, its a matter of protecting players. If Larentowicz doesnt want to disadvantage his team, he needs to show some control.
     
  15. asoc

    asoc Member+

    Sep 28, 2007
    Tacoma
    I get the reasoning behind the refs call.
    [​IMG]
    I think that picture explains it all. That tackle could have been so much worse if he connected with the leg full on.

    The Eduardo Da Silva tackle is the best example of what can go wrong with those types of tackles.

    [youtube]3L4RedN4RQI[/youtube]
     
  16. ianai

    ianai Member

    Aug 18, 2007
    Hampton, VA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I agree with you all on one hand. But I didn't think his challenge had any malicious intent, it was just a bad challenge. As a game develops, you can see a player who is out for blood, and book him for an identical challenge accordingly. That's why I would have given Larentowicz a yellow were I the ref and made it very clear that anything else along those lines would be an ejection. It looked more sloppy than anything, and he hadn't had the opportunity to display any signs of aggression other than this play.

    I'm not saying its okay, but I've accidentally gone in spikes up in a match, it does happen that you commit a bad foul, with no intent to harm from time to time. Larentowicz, at least in my recollection doesn't have a history or reputation for intent to harm. Still, all of these sentiments of "give the guy another chance" would go out the window had he broken someone's leg, so it's definitely a double-edged sword.

    That picture definitely justifies the call.
     
  17. The Devil's Architect

    Feb 10, 2000
    The American Steppe
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Bullshit, in my opinion.

    Dangerous play is dangerous play whenever it happens, and though it's gotten better over the last few seasons, 1998-2003 was pretty much open season on any player who's play would be described as either creative or "cheeky".

    If the player can't adjust or the coaching staff can't get him to adjust to not being a headhunter, then he might just have to look for other employment, lest he continually put his team a man down.
     
  18. asoc

    asoc Member+

    Sep 28, 2007
    Tacoma
    I don't think he went into the tackle to injure anyone.

    From what I remember reading about the Da Silva incident, people didn't think the tackle was meant to injure either.

    Sometimes people make poor decisions when they have little to no time.
     
  19. The Devil's Architect

    Feb 10, 2000
    The American Steppe
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Intent is largely irrelevant until you start talking about extra matches for a suspension. He doesn't typically have a rep as a thug, mostly just not very skilled.

    Had he not gone in on the tackle, and just met Pause shoulder to shoulder, there's probably not even a card and just free kick coming out.

    Probably not on the Revs board.

    And given that Toledo was right on top of it, that's pretty much the end of the argument
     
  20. SUDano

    SUDano Member+

    Jan 18, 2003
    Rochester, NY
    Great photo!. I saw Larentowicz tackle live and in slow mo 5 times on my DVR and each time he lifted his left leg toward player not toward ball. Easily a Red for all those who don't think so. Lucky Pause jumped quickly or he would have been Eduardo II.
     
  21. Mountainia

    Mountainia Member

    Jun 19, 2002
    Section 207, Row 7
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Right. And I think that's the whole point in cracking down on these types of players. If the crack down is consistent and permanent, then these players will either have to learn to never use that tackling technique, or teams will just cut them because their risk will have gone up.

    Overall, that's good for soccer.
     
  22. Ref Flunkie

    Ref Flunkie Member

    Oct 3, 2003
    New Hudson, MI
    And they should still be sent off. They aren't being banned from the game, they are being tossed for a serious error in judgment.

    As for consistency, it is going to take a little time and feedback from assessors to get everyone on the same page.
     
  23. SUDano

    SUDano Member+

    Jan 18, 2003
    Rochester, NY
    Malicious intent is a term made up by announcers and has nothing to due with the rules. You have no knowledge of Jeff Larentowicz state of mind than the ref does. You slide in with your foot angled towards a player way off the ground it's a Red Card. You don't think of his history, his intent, whether it was sloppy or controlled. A player who is sloppy without intent can snap a guy's leg in half. Simply doesn't matter if he meant to or not. Or if he succeeds at doing so or not either!
     
  24. ianai

    ianai Member

    Aug 18, 2007
    Hampton, VA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You are all right, I'm not arguing that it was an foul punishable by a dishonorable walk to the locker room. It was, but I was still surprised to actually see the red given. Watch a few hundred matches from across the globe and see how many similar tackles get sent off in the opening minutes of the match. While you're watching, take note of how many clear fouls in the area don't result in penalty kicks.

    Conceptually it's similar. More often than not, fouls that would be whistled in a heartbeat outside the 18 don't seem to warrant a penalty kick. Likewise, reds are less frequently handed out, even for deserving fouls so early in the game. That's all I'm saying, as it was a foul worthy of a red. Thirty minutes later in the match and there wouldn't be much if any controversy. Heck if it was in the second half we probably wouldn't be discussing it ;-)

    Typically, attempts are made to balance a match, that's all I'm saying. Right or wrong it is generally a fact around the world. There are several such strange trends. Take for example the increased likelihood of a team getting a soft penalty kick after the ref as awarded the opponent a penalty. Or dig up a stat on how frequently there is a second ejection to the other team when one team loses a player. Obviously these things aren't in the rules, but as refs rise higher and higher in the world of football they seem to become more commonplace. I don't know why, maybe some secret society of refs or something ;-)
     
  25. DamonEsquire

    DamonEsquire BigSoccer Supporter

    Sep 16, 2002
    Kentucky
    Club:
    Leeds United AFC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That foul maybe not cite. There was not any contact or the contact was kept minimum from television pictures. However, the red card is overpriced and a yellow card should've been way to go. I remember. The Under-17 World Cup tournament couple years back when USA played Italy. Mr. J. Spector slid right by that big Itilian guy which just so happen to score in a UEFA Cup match with a header during this week. He's pretty big and that shot which I reference to was worldly. Anyhow I felt; Momentum should be kept alive with advantage. But if you call that one the card should be Yellow or none. Result was close to a red though; so I can understand... Right makes sense. Luckly avoid foul and its a choke opportunity. Now Myself I could net any one of those hypotheticals but thats another storyline...
     

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