Harkes treatment part of trend for MLS?

Discussion in 'MLS: News & Analysis' started by LongtimeFan, Feb 27, 2003.

  1. LongtimeFan

    LongtimeFan New Member

    Feb 27, 2003
    Washington, DC
    In the fan threads, people are mostly discussing DC's decision yesterday not to sign John Harkes to finish out his career in black and red (despite his apparent willingness to play a subordinate role and play for cheap) as if it were just about Harkes, whether he's still a good player and whether he's better than various other players. While I'll admit that I've been a huge Harkes fan for over a decade, I think what's happening to him is representative of a much larger issue for MLS and for U.S. soccer fans.

    Harkes is one of a small group of elite USMNT players who gave up promising and lucrative European careers to come back here and launch the MLS, knowing that without the support of the players who were then the most famous and recognizable, MLS wouldn't get off the ground. Those players not only played in MLS, but most of them worked their butts off to promote it -- how many DC fans out there met Harkes at a mall, a school, a fan party, or just got him to stay and sign autographs after a game?

    And how did we thank those players? First, their original teams started to trade them around to free salary cap room. Then we forced them to take pay cuts if they wanted to keep playing. Finally, we released them altogether, forcing them to retire, play in the A-League, or wait around to see if some team might sign them midseason. It happened to Wynalda (who I think is still the all-time leading scorer for the USMNT) a couple of years ago because strikers wear out first. It's happening to Harkes and Lalas now. I think Balboa is probably next -- he has started being tossed from team to team. Could be Cobi in a few years. Heck, if he doesn't leave for Europe now, it's probably Eddie Pope in 5 years.

    The pattern bothers me at a human level because it seems ungrateful. But I also think it's going to be a longer-term problem for MLS , both because the constant turnover in team personnel undermines fan loyalty and because it sends a message to the younger guys that they'd better go overseas while they can. Look at the difference between what's happening to Earnie Stewart, who played on the '94 WC Team and stayed in Europe until he was ready for his victory lap, and Harkes and Wynalda, who came home in their prime.

    Because MLS doesn't pay enough to finance retirement at 40 and most players aren't famous enough in the mainstream media to be able to leverage their fame into second careers when they retire (although SOMEONE should replace Ty), any U.S. star who chooses to play in MLS is risking financial ruin in his 40s, since he'll almost surely have his talent insulted and get thrown out like garbage when he hits his late 30s.

    I don't know what the answer is -- maybe exempt a few senior players from the cap or have more player/coaches in the MLS? but I don't think it reflects well on U.S. soccer fans to let them do this to Harkes or any other player who has treated us with nothing but respect.
     
  2. jmeissen0

    jmeissen0 New Member

    Mar 31, 2001
    page 1078
    the fire traded nowak


    harkes is nothing
     
  3. soccertim

    soccertim Member

    Mar 29, 2001
    Mass
    A league with the salary structure of this one would have a hard time explaining to it's younger players that they should just scrape by but some of the guys who used to be good players are getting overpaid. As for Harkes, he stunk up Foxboro in part because he wouldn't accept a subordinate role. Now that his back's against the wall, he wants to become a team player?

    Didn't Garber's predecessor lose his job mainly because he re-signed Tab Ramos to a multi-year deal at the league max? That kind of thing would probably scare off the sentimental thinking.
     
  4. Liverpool_SC

    Liverpool_SC Member

    Jun 28, 2002
    Upstate, SC
    Harkes was 30 when he signed on with DC United - not exactly a spring chicken in the Soccer world. Wynalda was a tad younger, but I don't think it is fair to say he was in his prime for more than one or two years in the MLS. Both guys are going to do fine (in the broadcast booth, coaching, etc) with the rest of their careers. True, Wynalda would have liked to have extended his career in MLS but he TURNED DOWN a "lowball" offer from a MLS team (last season) in favor of a higher salary offering from the Charleston Battery (A-League). He didn't even figure for them due to injuring his leg and subsequently retiring.

    Tab Ramos, Marcelo Balboa and Alexei Lalas all certainly weighed their options before signing on with the MLS. Lalas pretty much played himself out of the league the first time around, Ramos retired on his own terms and Balboa has pretty much broken down. I don't know if Ramos or Balboa would have been able to get much better deals elsewhere (maybe Mexico) than they did in MLS. Most of the original USMNT MLS players got money above and beyond their capped salaries, so I don't think that many of them would complain.

    Going to Europe will continue to work for some players (Tony Sanneh has done fairly well for it) but there are other guys who are happy to come back, even after making the big bucks (Frankie Hedjuk, Landon Donovan).

    A lot of the guys who are going to Europe now (Joe Cannon, Wade Barrett, Matt Jordan) are doing it for the thrill as much as for the money. Other players like Eddie Pope probably could have played in Europe at other times in their career, but chose not to.

    Expanding into new cities will open more high salary roster spots for "seasoned" American players, but these are professional athletes. Just like Paul Gascoigne, David Ginola and others - they have to realize that they have no entitlement to play when they can no longer produce.
     
  5. LongtimeFan

    LongtimeFan New Member

    Feb 27, 2003
    Washington, DC
    I think people are missing my point, maybe because I am a Harkes fan. It's not about whether you like Harkes, Ramos, or Wynalda -- it's about what kind of future is available to a U.S. star who plays in the MLS instead of playing abroad. If you were a current MLS star in your 20s, wouldn't you think twice about staying in the U.S. knowing what happened to the biggest stars we had 10 years ago?

    And I think you're right that the salary cap doesn't make it possible for the older guys to re-sign at the maximum salary when they slow down (although we could still treat them more respectfully) but is it a good thing for MLS that everytime a player becomes a star, his team has to dump him for cap reasons, and no team can keep around an aging star as a leader/role model for long?
     
  6. Northside Rovers

    Jan 28, 2000
    Austin TX
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Well said - well written - and I agree (especially about the Ty part).

    It is a shame. Yes I know that Dallas just released Emmit Smith today. But the NFL and MLS operate in different universes.

    I don't know what the answer is either - I just know it is a shame. US Hall of Famers getting shuffled off and treated like Steve Shak.

    P40 people we have never heard of - get an exemption - how about ONE SENIOR exemption per team. That allows a team to keep a Nowak or a Harkes - someone who is or can be a leader and symbol for the team and someone who fans still want to see.

    I would still pay to see Harkes play. And you don't sound like no newbie.
     
  7. Chris M.

    Chris M. Member+

    Jan 18, 2002
    Chicago
    I tend to agree with you on one level, but then disagree under the existing format.

    I would expand your idea to include foreign players who chose to come here and have really added to the league at a time when they where still marketable in europe.

    Particularly when the league has a double-seceret probabtion salary cap where the rest of us are just guessing anyway.

    I think players like Harkes, Wynalda, Nowak etc. should be able to go out on their terms even if the rules must get bent a little. If they are willing to give Lothar a million dollar condo, surely they can work it so Harkes can play with DC without penalizing DC for giving him the chance. Also, It would almost have to be a roster spot exemption, or you would be taking away a place for a 19 year old which also is not fair.

    On the other hand, if MLS is going to run itself as a professional sports business, they have to do what's best for the teams and the league. We saw Emmitt Smith get dumped by the Cowboys which offends the same senses (and I hate the Cowboys :)).

    Also, I think its fair to say that most that came back at the start of MLS also got a pretty good deal (except Caligiuri). Using Harkes as an example, I'm sure he got the max salary, plus some endorsement money etc. AND a guaranteed contract for multiple years -- something he would not have gotten in Europe.

    Most of these guys also went from being fairly low on the pole to being the marketed star of their MLS team which doesn't suck.

    Weighing both sides, I still wish they could do something to let these guys go out with a little dignity, particularly when they wouldn't have to break the bank to do it.
     
  8. Casper

    Casper Member+

    Mar 30, 2001
    New York
    The original post seems to assume that European teams are far more loyal to their aging players who can't cut it on the field anymore. They're not.

    It also seems to assume that Wynalda and Harkes are "risking financial ruin" in their late 40s. It's entirely possible that one or both could have made more money in their careers by staying in Europe until 1999, neither is likely to be destitute soon. Although they're not retiring in the style that an NBA star who signed a $100-million contract will retire, there's no reason that they're entitled to a lazy retirement just because they were an athlete. Both plan to do lots of things that will continue to make them money.

    In all sports, and in all soccer leagues, if no team wants to pay you to play at a level and salary that are acceptable, your professional career is over.

    I'm not sure what "going to Europe" does to change that, except that you can earn a larger paycheck for a few years in the middle of your career. But you're not going to be treated with any greater loyalty by an EPL side that has another player in mind.
     
  9. Revolt

    Revolt Member+

    Jun 16, 1999
    Davis, CA
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    IMO, there are far too many MLS trades every year of big name players.
     
  10. roarksown1

    roarksown1 Member

    Mar 30, 2001
    Playa del Rey, CA
    Club:
    Hamburger SV
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It is the nature of the business, and I think it's the same thing in any league in the world. Once past 30, depending on how you're producing, your value goes down. That's just the way it is. There's no point in throwing out more money for a dying investment than shelling out the same amount on a young player who may or may not be groomed into something special. We've already seen what the older guys can do - management just would rather take the chance on the younger guy. I don't feel sorry for any of them, though. If I would have had the opportunity to make a living having fun and running around chasing a ball all day, I'd have taken it!
     
  11. Liverpool_SC

    Liverpool_SC Member

    Jun 28, 2002
    Upstate, SC
    Sorry if I sounded harsh - didn't mean to. I think that the player/coach role that some teams are using with older "icons" such as Robert Warzycha or Hristo Stoichov may be a solution. The senior exemption that Northside Rover talked about is an interesting idea, but I think it would have to carry a playing time or years-served restriction or some teams might just use it to up the ante and buy a old but still very good player at overly high wages. I guess that is about what the player/coach thing has become.

    Odd that it has mostly benefitted foreign players so far - you would think that Harkes would have been an ideal candidate for it, as I know he was already pursuing his coaching credentials. It will be interesting to see how this pans out with the next round of US National teamers - Cobi, BmB, Eddie Pope, etc. I suppose many of the younger MLS fans identify more closely with them as being pure stars in the league and on the National Team, whereas the best moments in the careers of Balboa, Weynalda and Ramos slipped below the public radar (while they were playing in foreign leagues).
     
  12. Walnuthorse

    Walnuthorse New Member

    Feb 27, 2003
    Rolla, MO
    Athletics and humanity

    Somehow the argument that's been floated here, that other professional sports or other leagues treat their players like crud, therefore it's OK for MLS soccer to do the same, seems less than reasonable. I used to take my daughter to the old St. Louis Steamers indoor soccer games and watched Rick Davis make the transition from USMNT captain to indoor star. And I watched Daryl (sp?) Duran move from schoolboy pro to all-star to player-coach. It can be done. We as fans just have to insist on it. In the fairly short run the movers and shakers of MLS recognize that they've got to keep our rears in the seats. If we say "Treat players with the respect they're due, especially as they age, for having invested their careers and their bodies, or we won't come" the league will listen. We just may have to hit them over the head with a 2x4 to get their attention.
     
  13. Steigs

    Steigs BigSoccer Supporter

    May 21, 2001
    Washington
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Actually, I believe the NBA Commissioner recently floated something along these lines -- some sort of exemption from the salary cap for 10 year plus veterans. I think it would make a lot of sense to have a targeted exemption for long-time vets like Harkes. Maybe people who've played at least three years in MLS and have have 30 or 50+ caps and are willing to take less than $XX,000. Elder statemen exemption.

    It's a shame. I wanted to see Harksie playing for DCU this year.
     
  14. Revolt

    Revolt Member+

    Jun 16, 1999
    Davis, CA
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Its a great idea - but the MLS has a hard cap, so these great ideas won't materialize.
     
  15. ManInBlack

    ManInBlack New Member

    Jul 6, 2001
    VT
    Harkes, et al, are victims of one thing, and one thing only: the cap. And, to perhaps a lesser extent, simple human nature.

    The effect of the salary cap system in sports is to groom capable young players (who begin professional life being affordable) into competent starters who, if they're good enough, will have the luxury of being able to bargain competitively with this league and others for their services. It's a system that's actually more kind to mid-range-salary role players than aging stars who find themselves, literally, unable to afford to play when faced with the prospect of a pay cut.

    And I think it's human nature to refuse to see yourself, when your time comes, as a mid-range-salary role player when you've been to the top of the heap.

    The Steelers just cut Kordell Stewart. If he played his cards, and his finances, right, he'll be set for life even if he nevers plays another down. And the team cleared millions off the cap in the process.

    If pro athletes don't understand--at least make an effort to understand--what they're getting into at the outset of their careers, I don't feel terribly sorry for them.
     
  16. soccerfan

    soccerfan BigSoccer Supporter

    Mar 13, 1999
    New Jersey
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    We all have our favorite players, the season ends and they might be gone we never hear of them again. I would definetly like to see a better relationship between US Soccer/MLS with its caped players to say the least. One would hope that players who gave a lot of their sweat towards the Nat team and MLS could find a future within. Look at the english leagues as an example, most of the coaches are former players. It is not like our youth don't need good training and soccer education. Having said all that it all comes down to money this days. When the day comes that MLS will be making money and the A -league can afford them . I am certain this players will have something better to relay on once their playing days are over. . I had a dream to become a professional soccer player, but my dad always said , soccer is not enough you need an education to have something when your soccer career is over. One hopes for the best and I so wish Harkes could be part of the future in some capacity.
     
  17. tab5g

    tab5g Member+

    May 17, 2002
    This certainly is a difficult problem, and one that the MLS needs to address, but there are just some things that are only made worse when you try to fix them.

    I would like to see Harkes in a DC United jersey this season (and there's always the chance he could get signed mid-season because of any number of reasons; injuries, players leaving, etc.), but I see the problem of DC doing so much work early in the off-season to improve/alter the roster, that by the time Harkes became available, it was too late for him.

    Had Nowak retired earlier, would Hristo be a play-coach in Chicago? Had Earnie chosen Dallas, wouldn't there be room for Harkes in DC? Had Alegria's visa problems continued, would Harkes be signed for 1 more year in DC?

    There was just a series of events that took place this offseason, and Harkes came out on the short end of the stick. And this is a shame. But it is difficult to blame anyone or any league for the choices they make.

    If Jack and Ty can carry on their broadcasting careers, I'm sure Harkes will find something to stay happy.
     
  18. SoccerEsq

    SoccerEsq Member

    Aug 28, 2000
    Maryland SoccerPlexish
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    For a young league like this that is trying to grow, this sort of thing is more of a problem than for established leagues.

    Being a sports fan is all about emotional attachment. And that attachment is often to players not teams, especially when the teams don't have much history. Think about how many people become loyal fans of teams after first becoming loyal fans of particular players. Once your team is established, like the Dallas Cowboys, you can do what you want and know the fans will still be loyal to the franchise.

    Harkes represented the US National Team on the first DC United champion squads, and I believe it did cost the team goodwill among their fans when they had to trade him the first time and will cost some more as they now turn down a chance to get him back.

    It's not the end of the world for Harkes and probably is a prudent move to make by Hudson, but it does cost DC a little of emotional capital their fans have invested in the team.
     
  19. Elninho

    Elninho Member+

    Sacramento Republic FC
    United States
    Oct 30, 2000
    Sacramento, CA
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I like the "Elder Statesman" exemption... but I think time in MLS should be more important than caps.

    I think each team should have one cap-exempt roster spot for a player who has played at least 4 years in MLS, capped by his country at least once, willing to play for, say, 1/3 of maximum salary or less. This would have kept Harkes and Wynalda on MLS rosters, at least.
     
  20. monster

    monster Member

    Oct 19, 1999
    Hanover, PA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    People should earn roster spots. MLS finally begins to get a little transparancy and you want to throw it away for a guy who at least TWO teams have not wanted on their roster this season.

    I like John, but if he can't make a team on the merits, see ya later. When MLS starts an entitlement program is the day the might as well bring Doug Frigging Logan back.
     
  21. QuakeAttack

    QuakeAttack Member+

    Apr 10, 2002
    California - Bay Area
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    [Sarcasm]Yeah, I was hoping that you would have picked up Harkes so you would suck again this year. Without him, you actually had some promise this year. He could have taken up a roster spot for someone who was young and developing... just to see him sit on the bench! Of course, he still has the ability and talent. Just ask NE, Columbus etc...[/Sarcasm]

    What suck's more is losing players in their prime (I.e. Wade Barrett) to Europe because of salary cap issues? However, we need to live with it until the league gets closer to being profitable...

    Let's worry about other issues rather than finding a "senior" slot on the team. Heh, we don't even have enough players on a team, let alone a "B" team to fill out and develop teams. If we are going to be more competiive internationally, we need to add more players slots before adding a senior slot...

    I would much rather see a competite team than see older stars sitting on the bench. Sure, you can have both, but not yet...
     
  22. Noah Dahl

    Noah Dahl New Member

    Nov 1, 2001
    Pottersville
    I love these guys for what they did, and agree they deserve some extra respect. Most of them got it.

    Basic to your premise is the quote above. And it's just false. Harkes, Wynalda and Lalas had peaked in Europe, were having a tough go and, IMO, wanted to come back to the states where they could coast a bit and be the big shots. The stars. The go-to men with guaranteed PT.

    Harkes at Derby was not the lean mean machine he was as a right back (!) and midfielder for Wednesday. Since that achievement his ego has haunted his career. Obviously. Even Hudson gave Harkes' personality as a reason he chose not to re-sign him.

    If he wasn't 'John Harkes" I don't think he would've been paid what he was paid or even been able to stay in the league as long as he did.

    You can certainly say the same for Ramos and Wynalda. Lalas has rightfully regained our respect, through humility, hard work and quality play.
     
  23. hangthadj

    hangthadj Member+

    A.S. Roma
    Mar 27, 2001
    Zone 14
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Comedy.
     
  24. CrewToon

    CrewToon Member

    Jun 13, 1999
    Greenbrier Farm
    Typical MLS.
     
  25. GoDC

    GoDC Member

    Nov 23, 1999
    Hamilton, VA
    It's not like we have a Hall of Fame for MLS or anything. He should have retired after last season and been done with it.

    jim, you are out of control.
     

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