Hans-Jörg Butt?

Discussion in 'Germany' started by Mattbro, Sep 21, 2002.

  1. Mattbro

    Mattbro Member+

    Sep 21, 2001
    What's the deal with H.J Butt? How come he hasn't been playing? Olaf? Anyone?
     
  2. panicfc

    panicfc Member+

    Dec 22, 2000
    In my chair, typing
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Toppi benched him. Juric looks massive Crap to me.
     
  3. Mattbro

    Mattbro Member+

    Sep 21, 2001
    How on earth did he get into Toppi's doghouse? And why is he still there, consider how poorly Juric has been playing? I bet they wish they had Matysek back now!
     
  4. panicfc

    panicfc Member+

    Dec 22, 2000
    In my chair, typing
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think he wishes he had Tim Howard
     
  5. olafgb

    olafgb New Member

    Jun 6, 2001
    Germany
    Butt really is in bad shape at the moment. Juric is no top goalie, good enough to play some games though. The SAT1 announcer was way too critical with him IMO, today he didn't do major mistakes. Butt will return in a few games I think.
     
  6. panicfc

    panicfc Member+

    Dec 22, 2000
    In my chair, typing
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    here is my take.
    1) Ref blew the penalty call- no fault of Juric.

    2nd goal - great strike by the Greek guy, but Juric looked surprised by the play.

    3rd goal - I think he was too slow off his line. I think this is the goal that was his fault.

    He also looked shakey on several other plays, his clearance was horrible on another occassion.
     
  7. olafgb

    olafgb New Member

    Jun 6, 2001
    Germany
    You gotta read Leverkusen story of this season to understand the problems: in every game so far they led 1-0, but only the national cup game against D3 team RW Essen (1-0, they didn't get a goal against) and the league game in Rostock (3-1, they added a second soon) were won. As soon as the opponent scores the equaliser, the whole team loses control and the game within minutes (today, Piraeus, Bochum...).

    My version of goals two and three:

    2: Charisteas (top talent btw) made a sudden shot, also surprising for Ramelow, who closed the angle for a dangerous run into the box. The shot was also a big surprise for Juric, who maybe (I got to see the scene again for a final judgement) could have reacted as it was a 16m shot.
    3: school boys defence - all rushing to the offence, hardly anyone protecting in the defence (you could nicely watch Butt criticising it with his hands on the bench). The shot this time was slow, but exactly fitting next to the post - but Juric covered the angle quite well and IMO had no chance to save in this scene.


    In general I gotta say that Leverkusen often makes the goalie problem themselves. They'll never have a Kahn as they are playing an offence style that usually just allows a few shots on goal, but this often are one on one situations where the goalie hardly has a chance - or the goalie is simply cold after not having a lot to do for some time before. Daum made the mistake to criticize Matysek, who has been fairly well though not outstanding, same goes for Butt now. Butt is better than Juric, there is no doubt about it. If they had just said "Butt is not in good shape, we'll put Juric in for one or two games until Butt recovers", then everyone would have understood, but now they feeded the media with the old goalie story in Leverkusen.
     
  8. prk166

    prk166 BigSoccer Supporter

    Aug 8, 2000
    Med City
    Butt will be back in nets ooner than later. He's a key figure in Leverjusen's success to date.
     
  9. Mattbro

    Mattbro Member+

    Sep 21, 2001
    This is a good point. The team desperately needs leadership with Ballack and (albeit temporarily) Nowotny out of the picture. Ramelow just doesn't seem to be providing that leadership and confidence. That's why I think Ulf should play more often. Obviously he can't organize the defense, but he has so much experience and has been in so many situations, and he can get loud when it's needed, too. I think Ulf should be out there with the captain's armband on.
     
  10. panicfc

    panicfc Member+

    Dec 22, 2000
    In my chair, typing
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'm still going to argue that Juric was slow off his line on the 3rd goal, despite it being perfectly placed.

    If he comes off quick - Greek star doesn't have as much time or angle to work with.

    My other complaint is Neuville - he looks lost out there. If Landon was watching this morning he should be saying to himself and his agent, and anyone that will listen "I can take that job right now, right now I'm telling you".

    A good point that Max Bretos brought out is so many of the Leverkusen players are tired from the WC. This could be true, but they have to deal with it. Lucio didn't look worn to me.

    Most importantly the defense is missing Novotny.

    By the way I liked Hanno Balitsch, he was a good tackler and made a lot of plays.

    Bierofka also looked good to me.
     
  11. olafgb

    olafgb New Member

    Jun 6, 2001
    Germany
    You're right. I watched this scene again yesterday evening and despite that he covered the angle quite well, he was coming too slow off the line. If he had stood on this place earlier, he could have made a side step, jump and at least deflect the ball.

    Agreed, though he had some very good scenes yesterday (assist 1-0, shot to the post). Last year they were playing with 3 real forwards, this season it is more like 4-5-1 or 3-6-1 - don't like the system either. But I'm sure he'll have a second forward as soon as Berbatov [both ejections were a joke btw] or Franca are completely fit.

    I really think that it's negligent of Bayer to not demand him back in this situation. In general they have nobody to replace Simak or Bastürk in the center and at the moment you see the problems on the right wing (Schneider bad shape, Sebescen injured) and the forwards (Neuville bad shape, Brdaric no top forward, Berbatov and Franca often injured) - though, admittedly, at the time he'd come over the situation might be entirely different at least on right wing and forward position.

    This is indeed true, though actually Lucio is the only WC player who IS in good shape. Was a bad mistake of Leverkusen to demand them back only two weeks before the season started. They couldn't have the physical requirements in the first game and we don't have talk about training moves with the other players. Little self-made crisis I got to say.

    It's not only Nowotny missing - with him, Placente and Juan three of the four regular starters in the four men defence are injured. No wonder that they look bad at the moment. Lucio, as the only one remaining, tries to do his best, but of course he can't make it all alone.

    Can't argue with this one, though I got to say that Leverkusen, despite of the loss, played quite good yesterday. Was surely an improvement to the other games so far. Bremen is always an opponent Leverkusen fears (only one they got 0 points against last season; one win in Bremen in the whole club history) and this season Werder is very strong. I can even imagine them making rank 3 this time.

    @Mattbro: partially right what you said. Toppmöller yesterday said that Lucio and Ramelow are his team leaders at the moment. As I said, Lucio is overpowered as the only one remaining of the four regular defenders, but Ramelow is overestimated since years by the officials. He's no bad player, but nobody who could control a game or lead a team - additionally for me his is the synonym for the Bayer player losing his nerves in crunch time.
    What I don't sign is your comment on Ulf. He is no help anymore - he played against Bochum and was entirely out of shape. He shouldn't harm his reputation by adding a season after which people say "he retired too late" (Hello Mr Brehme and Matthäus ;))
     
  12. panicfc

    panicfc Member+

    Dec 22, 2000
    In my chair, typing
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    He also looked scared on many occassions - made me very nervous just watching him.

    Assist - I won't give him that. It was a rebound that was put in. He just doesn't look sharp - and not as quick.


    I agree. Of course Lando could be worn out as well when he returns.

    The tough part is Germany getting to the Final, had they lost to the US they have gotten two weeks more rest.
    :D

    Lucio is amazing. I haven't seen Juan yet, but you know he has to be talented.



    They are the "bogie" team.

    I've never been a Ramelow fan, and his leadership ability is definitely questionable.

    LOL!

    That was brilliant.
     

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