Raising this from a discussion elsewhere. The ball sitting on PA line, with half the ball outside the PA. What is your call if: The goalkeeper places his hand on the ball, touching only the part of the ball that is outside of the PA? The goalkeeper places his hand on the ball, touching mostly the part of the ball that is inside the PA, but also part of the ball that is outside of the PA? A defender touches the part of the ball that is outside of the PA? Any sources to support your answer?
I remember seeing something about this a few years ago specifically saying that #1 would be legal and not handling (assuming we're not dealing with a backpass or something like that). Thus #2 would also be legal. I remember this because it seemed counterintuitive to me, but the rationale was that since the line is part of the area, and the ball is (partially) in the area, the keeper is allowed to handle all of the ball. I don't know if this is where I saw it originally, but here is one source: http://www.askasoccerreferee.com/the-goalkeeper-and-the-penalty-area-line/ For #3, I can't remember seeing anything specifically, but my gut would default to saying FK, not PK. (Of course, my gut would've been wrong for #1 and #2, so take that with a grain of salt.)
Actually, I was posting both because it might be an interesting discussion for some and to see if there was any current guidance that anyone was aware of. (The ATR, of course, is not a currently valid source, nor are the JA answers on this subject.) I know the answers I would give to the three questions, but in another place, someone posted an email answer from the IFAB law inquiries email account that was not consistent with my understanding. I've never been quite sure how confident to be in the authority level of those answers--and in the past have seen answers that were inherently contradictory with one another. I'm not convinced I should change my answers based on the IFAB email without more clear guidance out there.
1 and 2 legal, 3 illegal. The lines are part of the areas they bound, and since the ball is on (i.e. not outside) the PA line in all three cases, the ball is in the PA. Touching X portion of the ball is a red herring, the ball is either in a place or not. GK handling legal for 1 & 2 legal since ball is in the PA. Defender handling in 3 illegal since ball is in the PA. Give the PK and start drafting next year's exam questions on the car ride home.
The answers @Pittsburgh Ref gives are the same ones I would give, which (as far as I know) has long been the consistent teaching, at least in the US. In another context, some refs took the position it was purely determined by the point of contact between the hand and the ball. In an email to the laws of the game questions at IFAB, the answer came that “the crucial factor is the point of contact between the hand and the ball.” Which would mean HB, HB, DFK to my questions above. I’m not ready to change a long standing interpretation based solely on a back channel email, which is why I was wondering if anyone was aware of a change on this. I don’t think the language of the Laws or any changes in the language really mandate either interpretation. (It used to be true that the position of the ball had to be determinative, as fouls couldn’t happen off the field, so there would have been no basis for a PK if a defender stopped a bal by handling only the part of the ball that had crossed the goal line and not the part still over the goal line. But that is no longer necessary, as fouls can happen off the field. But that does not seem to me to be a compelling reason to change this interpretation issue. Of course, without VAR this is more academic than substantive as an issue.)
But in the case of touching the ball partly over the goal line, isn't the only consideration for handling whether the player was on or off the field? That is, touching the side over the line from within the goal v touching it while on the FOP? I think I'm going to go kick a goal kick into the wind and have it blow back at me while an onrushing attacker challenges, not having left the PA prior to the kick, but not having interfered with my taking of the kick. Can't wait to see how I handle (!) that!
This seems to be one of those instances where we have to defer to what is practical. Asking a referee of any kind to make that small of a measurement on what is likely to be a moving ball and moving keeper is ludicrous. Ball above or touching the line = on the line so legal in 1 & 2. By that same principle defender touches the ball in same circumstances = PK. We already have the world in an uproar trying to judge offside by the nanometer, let’s not do the same thing here.
I agree largely, which is why I said it was more a academic than practical—but on a still ball pinned to the ground, it’s possible we’d be able to tell. But with VAR, it could be discernible on the PK/DFK question, so it isn’t purely academic at the top levels.
True. At the top levels they could make a go of it. And they very well might. But at some point I hope they remember not everyone has VAR to help make these kinds of calls. They should stop trying to build the structure of the laws around everyone having that level of technology.