Hamas Attacks, Israel Responds

I doubt if the state of Palestine (some sort of Palestinian support group with big hopes and aspirations I expect) thinks that would help much. They probably believe the hostages give them a little leverage in negotiations.

And you may be over estimating hamas and their ability to surrender en masse. Hamas is in large part an ideology, many of their sympathizers and members are kids who've blended back into whats left of their bombed out, starving society. Then there's hamas in the WB, and the hamas leadership which looks pretty dispersed and unlikely to capitulate. its convenient to try to blame hamas for the war crimes Israel is committing every day, but its disingenuous and most of the world isn't buying it.

 

So we have reached the "I wish the starving populace would behave better" stage of the discussion.

 

Is it possible for Hamas to release the hostages or Israel still bear the responsibility for that?

So what is Hamas exactly responsible for

 

Pretty hard (for me at least) to tell what happened from this clip.

But "people with guns getting spooked" is how most massacres happen.

Events like Rabaa and Tianemen are the exception.

 

Yes! That's what I've been saying since 10/7. We were all shocked and repulsed by hamas atrocities that day, but Palestinians in Gaza have been living under terrible (and ever worsening) conditions for generations. Every time there's been a flare up of hostilities, Israel made sure Palestinians paid a far dearer price in death and destruction. This is an age old conflict where one party is an armed-to-the-teeth modern day military and nuclear power, the other is a rag tag group of militants, mostly children, a completely defenseless population, pushing back against Israeli oppression, as any self-respecting people would.

Context is everything.

 

Hamas started the war, in brutal fashion. Hamas is supposedly the governing power in Gaza. If they don’t like how the war they started is going, they can surrender. Maybe not all of their adherents would follow suit, but at least they could try it, rather than just begging Israel to stop retaliating for the actions they undertook. Treating Israel as if they’re the only party with any agency in this is grossly unfair.

 

not the only party with any agency. but they hold mostly all the marbles. its a completely one-sided conflict in terms of who holds all the power. its always been incumbent upon Israel to take the initiative to broker a peace. Israel has utterly failed in this regard, their actions have instead been provocative, oppressive and brutal...and it's been going on forever.

context really does matter. we shouldn't pretend this started on 10/7, it would be a complete misread of the situation.

 

my point is that Palestinians have overwhelmingly suffered the worst in this conflict for generations. The situation pre 10/7 was inhumane and untenable...Israel knew this and yet failed to do everything in its power to achieve peace. It was quite the opposite; Israel was doing nothing. Instead, it was inflaming tensions with constant settlement expansion which encroaches on disputed territories, and it was increasingly removing any hope for a better life for Palestinians with its oppressive stranglehold on Gaza.

Israel knew damn well that nothing was settled and it was only a matter of time before the next round of hostilities which began on 10/7.

 

Is there any off-ramp to this conflict? Neither side seems to want a cease-fire, so where do we go from here?

 

We’re rehashing stuff from much earlier in this thread now, but if you can’t acknowledge the drastic level of escalation that the 10/7 attacks were then you’re never going to understand why Israel is responding like they are. And yes, some of it relates to cultural trauma that existed before Israel even came into existence.

And regardless of the power imbalance, Hamas IS able to release the hostages and stop fighting. That would be step one in ending this conflict.

 

they could but they’re not going to without achieving concessions Israel is unwilling to make. And so it drags on as it always has with Palestinians paying most dearly only this time it appears the goal is to wipe them out completely once they’ve suffered immeasurably.

 

I can see that for the atrocity that it was while also seeing it as the most recent manifestation of a generations old struggle, without excusing it in any way.

 

Regarding proportionality the basic concept is that Israel has the right to force Hamas' removal from power as a proportional response to the October 7th atrocity. That has been my beginning statement to this war and I see no way that Israel can accept a resolution that will allow Hamas to stay in power.

 

And Israel could stop building in the occupied territories. That would be step zero in ending this conflict. Instead, it is further inflaming the situation by announcing more “settlement” building and turning a blind eye to violence there against Palestinians.

 

what Israel is doing (and has been doing for years and years, really) is indefensible and criminal.

Our perspectives are different of course, I’m looking at this as an objective outsider, this has much deeper personal significance for you…

…on a basic humanitarian level though I find what Israel is doing in Gaza offensive, far more so now than ever, but I felt that way long before 10/7 tbh.

 

I agree with that, but has that actually been on the table? I haven’t been keeping up on all the details, but as I recall Hamas was demanding release of Israeli held prisoners as well.

 

That should stop as well, but it’s a separate issue that needs to be worked out after the fighting in Gaza is ended and hostages are released.

 

That was a separate offer. They've made multiple offers of a permanent ceasefire in exchange for the Israeli hostages. That was refused by Israel. It's obviously not about the hostages or Hamas, but the land/resources. It's been made abundantly clear. Officials have at times said the hostages aren't a priority (while bombing where they are indiscriminately) and that defeating Hamas this way is an unachievable goal (and they're killing 95% civilians).

Heck, I'd suspect all the participants in Oct. 7th would turn themselves in if they not only got the permanent ceasefire, but a state by the 1967 borders, which almost the entire UN supports every year when they vote on the solution to the Palestine-Israel question. All the governing bodies of Palestine support that. Netanyahu has said he doesn't support any state for Palestinians, and the closest they've ever gotten is Rabin saying they'd get "less than a state". They want to expand (Greater Israel) perpetually, not contract, or even maintain. That's happened piecemeal with the settlements, and at times in chunks like now, 1948, or 1967.