Hamas Attacks, Israel Responds

Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by Cascarino's Pizzeria, Oct 7, 2023.

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  1. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
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    DC United
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    All the ones where you defended him about anti Semitism
     
  2. Belgian guy

    Belgian guy Member+

    Club Brugge
    Belgium
    Aug 19, 2002
    Belgium
    Club:
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    It's more than "to a certain extent".
    What else exactly is the human shields thing all about? To name just one thing.
    How this war is perceived outside of Israel will have a huge bearing on its outcome. For one thing it has a direct impact on how long the Biden admin will feel comfortable extending the current carte blanche Bibi & co are enjoying.
     
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  3. Belgian guy

    Belgian guy Member+

    Club Brugge
    Belgium
    Aug 19, 2002
    Belgium
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    If potential hate crimes that might be a direct or indirect consequence of this war have no place in this topic, then I don't know how the opinions of a backbench Labour MP can be of great relevance.
     
  4. Naughtius Maximus

    Jul 10, 2001
    Shropshire
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    Like I said, you don't know enough about it to comment.
     
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  5. luftmensch

    luftmensch Member+

    .
    United States
    May 4, 2006
    Petaluma
    Club:
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    Dang, you must really have the inside track on this.
     
  6. luftmensch

    luftmensch Member+

    .
    United States
    May 4, 2006
    Petaluma
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    #7981 luftmensch, Dec 9, 2023
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2023
    Of course it will, but I really don’t think it’s the first concern for those actually involved in the war.

    Not to mention there’s the propaganda directed toward those of us on the outside, and that directed toward Israeli citizens, and each is going to have different aims. Soldiers dedicating bombed buildings to family members may seem in poor taste to those of us on the outside, but they’re trying to fire up the home team.

    Again, maybe it ain’t right, but it’s reality.
     
  7. Quakes05

    Quakes05 Member+

    Oct 1, 2005
    birthplace of MLS
    it's a real war alright, and a propaganda war, take for instance this pro Israel stuff that gets pumped out every day by Christian TV...



    ...interestingly, Yair Pinto seems to have more operational insight/detail than most western journalists. I expect he's embedded w/ IDF.
     
  8. Naughtius Maximus

    Jul 10, 2001
    Shropshire
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    If you're talking about Corbyn he's not a member of the labour party any more. I assume dave;s talking about the past but that discussion revolves around the issue of certain double standards, examples of which we've seen in this thread. Of course, to discuss those you have to know enough about the subject to decide which things might be antisemitism and which aren't. That can get complicated.

    I can make a judgement because I know the subject intimately. Of course, other people who are also familiar with it might not agree with my interpretation but that's to be expected.

    Dave can't make much of a judgement because he almost certainly doesn't know the subject well enough.

    This is the sort of thing we normally get...



    Of course, Corbyn's view about how to deal with the IRA in northern Ireland was very similar. He suggested Thatcher's government needed to start discussions to see if a peace deal could be done so both communities could be brought into administering the province. His approach was decried and ridiculed by the media and by right-wing politicians at that time DESPITE the fact we later found out that was exactly what Thatcher was doing. That led, eventually, to the good friday agreement.

    IOW he was proved right.

    So, much like the sort of double standards we're getting about this Stefanik idiot who's a racist and likely antisemite, most of the complaints against him were disingenuous and unfair.

    There are a few issues such as not taking the issue within the party seriously enough and interference in internal disciplinary affairs by people in his office that are probably fair... that's why the whip was removed from him of course.

    So.... it's complicated, shall we say. The highlights reels people want use to use as examples simply illustrate their ignorance of the matter.
     
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  9. charlie15

    charlie15 Member+

    Mar 9, 2000
    Bethesda, Md
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    Arsenal FC
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    That past was something indeed. I covered all the bases of deshumanization. I didn't even know where to start and just decided to leave it alone.
     
  10. Quakes05

    Quakes05 Member+

    Oct 1, 2005
    birthplace of MLS
    and not just any old run of the mill mod, mind you...absolutely one of the best in the business.

    I don't think it takes too much imagination or empathy to put yourself in the shoes of our Jewish friends. so, while I may not agree with @TyffaneeSue on much of this, its not hard to see why her views would run counter to my own.
     
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  11. charlie15

    charlie15 Member+

    Mar 9, 2000
    Bethesda, Md
    Club:
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    Empathy, compassion, humanity can't be a one way street though.
     
  12. TyffaneeSue

    TyffaneeSue moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 15, 2003
    Upstairs
    Club:
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    I know it may be hard to believe, but most American Jews care about the Palestinians. In services this morning, the prayers were for them as well as for Israelis.

    As I have reiterated many times on this thread, you'd have to be subhuman not to feel compassion for people suffering. I can't speak to every Jew, but in general we have a high level of empathy -- we know what it's like.
     
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  13. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The propaganda war is bullshit for those of us safely thousands of miles from the killing. Real Life is the people there suffering, and if propaganda has had a scintilla of impact on the violence, I’d like to know what it is.
     
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  14. tomásbernal

    tomásbernal Member+

    Sep 4, 2007
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  15. Quakes05

    Quakes05 Member+

    Oct 1, 2005
    birthplace of MLS
    You’re conflating two separate things; the battle for hearts and minds, and the war itself. Both are real.
     
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  16. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
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    But only one is meaningful. The battle for hearts and minds is meaningless. Seriously, let’s say for the sake of argument that Hamas wins the propaganda war. How, precisely, will that change Israel’s plans right now? Seriously, the importance we are putting on propaganda in this thread is underpants gnomish. What is step 2 between winning the propaganda war and winning the real war?

    Im being a real dick here, but the only importance is that the two factions on this thread feel better or worse based on the latest propaganda. We aren’t the players is in this game, we are merely the audience. We are rooting for Our Teams. Yawn.
     
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  17. Moishe

    Moishe Moderator
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    Boca Juniors
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    Mar 6, 2005
    Here there and everywhere.
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    #7992 Moishe, Dec 9, 2023
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2023
    I know for certain that Yasik, Tyfneesue and myself have all voiced our issues with Bibi and the far right. I cannot speak for them but the consensus among every poster holds the same opinion.

    Gotta ask, why single out the Jews? We are not the only ones that are supporting Israel in this conflict.
     
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  18. Quakes05

    Quakes05 Member+

    Oct 1, 2005
    birthplace of MLS
    Take for instance the 2 million Palestinians all squeezed into Rafah, all waiting for their daily ration of flour and water, I'm sure there are hardliners in Israel that would like to finish them off and claim Gaza as part of greater Israel. But world opinion has shifted, and I'm sure Bibi is keenly aware of this. There will have to be a humanitarian solution for what becomes of the Palestinians trapped in Rafah, and ultimately a political solution, not a military one, much of that shifting of opinion has to do with how the story gets told.
     
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  19. Naughtius Maximus

    Jul 10, 2001
    Shropshire
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    Also it's probably true to say that the use of language can be difficult to gauge sometimes. You might mean to say something and to emphasise particular aspects but don't get it right.

    I must admit I do tend to give a certain leeway to some people in this thread who are suffering but, obviously, that can only be taken so far. when it conflicts with others who are suffering a lot worse, 'the rubber meets the road', as they say.

    At the end of the day there is a real situation at hand and we can't simply ignore that because it makes someone uncomfortable.

    What the Israelis are doing is absolutely appalling and we passed the point of it being justifiable a long time ago. Since then the situation has only got worse.
     
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  20. charlie15

    charlie15 Member+

    Mar 9, 2000
    Bethesda, Md
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
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    Thanks for saying that. My American Jewish friends are on the same page. While they all agree on the necessity of getting rid of Hamas, they are rightly horrified by the terrible disaster in Gaza.
    Having said that, it is hard to reconcile your care for Palestinians and generalizations like that : " Israel could end this, they would, but as long as Gazans remain committed to wiping out all the Jews, that's not going to happen, even if the US says so." Let's say this is not accurate or helpful to say the least.
     
  21. Naughtius Maximus

    Jul 10, 2001
    Shropshire
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    I can't speak for others but I've tried not to. It's only when someone has said something contentious or which I've found questionable that I've raised an issue.

    On the more general question of who to blame, frankly, I find the position of the American government almost as reprehensible and over almost as many years as the Israelis.

    People drone on about how the Israeli government has backed the settlers in the west bank and the use of the IDF to aid them but various American governments have always given them cover and actual aid to do it.

    That's why some of the complaints, (particularly in terms of it being a 'colonial' exercise), have a ring of truth.... NOT for the Israelis but for the Americans. That's also why the claim it's a 'client state' rings true for many people, particularly in the region, even if it's maybe unfair.

    IOW some of it comes down not to antisemitism so much as anti-Americanism.
     
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  22. Naughtius Maximus

    Jul 10, 2001
    Shropshire
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    Yeah, that should have been 'as long as some Gazans...' shouldn't it.

    But that's what I mean by giving a certain leeway to some people. We don't want to get into parsing posts like we're writing contract clauses :D
     
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  23. Cascarino's Pizzeria

    Apr 29, 2001
    New Jersey, USA
    I don't think you all want to see women & children blown to pieces any more than anyone wanted that on 10/7. But some of the posts get into "well until the hostages are back just blow Gaza to bits because they have tunnels under every building. What else can be done?" or "they started it so why do we have to be careful with civilians?"
     
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  24. charlie15

    charlie15 Member+

    Mar 9, 2000
    Bethesda, Md
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
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    That is some interesting twist here. I guess the clock will run out sooner than later.

    Biden Casts First Veto Since Gaza Ground Op Began; Israel Isn't Sure He'll Repeat This
    Members of Israel's war cabinet were informed in recent days about growing difficulties within the Biden administration about continuing its total support for Israel, both due to internal political considerations and to the impression that the quiet support for the war by several Arab countries is weakening.

    https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news...eat-this/0000018c-4fa1-db23-ad9f-6ff90d220000
     
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  25. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Fascist Hellscape
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Belgium
    If anyone is interested, the NYT has the 'ticktock" on the Uni Presidents testimony and how they were coached by a white shoe law firm. As Attorney Ken White noted, the answers were legally correct, but didn't land well. The firm has a lot of experience in prepping for congressional 'ambush' sessions which are a mix of what is legally correct, and PR soundbites. So it isn't clear if it was the prep which wasn't good enough or if the clients went off script as things got heated.
     
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