Hamas Attacks, Israel Responds

All the ones where you defended him about anti Semitism

 

It's more than "to a certain extent".
What else exactly is the human shields thing all about? To name just one thing.
How this war is perceived outside of Israel will have a huge bearing on its outcome. For one thing it has a direct impact on how long the Biden admin will feel comfortable extending the current carte blanche Bibi & co are enjoying.

 

If potential hate crimes that might be a direct or indirect consequence of this war have no place in this topic, then I don't know how the opinions of a backbench Labour MP can be of great relevance.

 

Like I said, you don't know enough about it to comment.

 

Dang, you must really have the inside track on this.

 

Of course it will, but I really don’t think it’s the first concern for those actually involved in the war.

Not to mention there’s the propaganda directed toward those of us on the outside, and that directed toward Israeli citizens, and each is going to have different aims. Soldiers dedicating bombed buildings to family members may seem in poor taste to those of us on the outside, but they’re trying to fire up the home team.

Again, maybe it ain’t right, but it’s reality.

 

it's a real war alright, and a propaganda war, take for instance this pro Israel stuff that gets pumped out every day by Christian TV...



...interestingly, Yair Pinto seems to have more operational insight/detail than most western journalists. I expect he's embedded w/ IDF.

 

If you're talking about Corbyn he's not a member of the labour party any more. I assume dave;s talking about the past but that discussion revolves around the issue of certain double standards, examples of which we've seen in this thread. Of course, to discuss those you have to know enough about the subject to decide which things might be antisemitism and which aren't. That can get complicated.

I can make a judgement because I know the subject intimately. Of course, other people who are also familiar with it might not agree with my interpretation but that's to be expected.

Dave can't make much of a judgement because he almost certainly doesn't know the subject well enough.

This is the sort of thing we normally get...



Of course, Corbyn's view about how to deal with the IRA in northern Ireland was very similar. He suggested Thatcher's government needed to start discussions to see if a peace deal could be done so both communities could be brought into administering the province. His approach was decried and ridiculed by the media and by right-wing politicians at that time DESPITE the fact we later found out that was exactly what Thatcher was doing. That led, eventually, to the good friday agreement.

IOW he was proved right.

So, much like the sort of double standards we're getting about this Stefanik idiot who's a racist and likely antisemite, most of the complaints against him were disingenuous and unfair.

There are a few issues such as not taking the issue within the party seriously enough and interference in internal disciplinary affairs by people in his office that are probably fair... that's why the whip was removed from him of course.

So.... it's complicated, shall we say. The highlights reels people want use to use as examples simply illustrate their ignorance of the matter.

 

That past was something indeed. I covered all the bases of deshumanization. I didn't even know where to start and just decided to leave it alone.

 

and not just any old run of the mill mod, mind you...absolutely one of the best in the business.

I don't think it takes too much imagination or empathy to put yourself in the shoes of our Jewish friends. so, while I may not agree with @TyffaneeSue on much of this, its not hard to see why her views would run counter to my own.

 

Empathy, compassion, humanity can't be a one way street though.

 

The propaganda war is bullshit for those of us safely thousands of miles from the killing. Real Life is the people there suffering, and if propaganda has had a scintilla of impact on the violence, I’d like to know what it is.

 

And one day later, this:

Biden Administration Bypasses Congress to Approve Sale of Tank Shells to Israel

 

You’re conflating two separate things; the battle for hearts and minds, and the war itself. Both are real.

 

But only one is meaningful. The battle for hearts and minds is meaningless. Seriously, let’s say for the sake of argument that Hamas wins the propaganda war. How, precisely, will that change Israel’s plans right now? Seriously, the importance we are putting on propaganda in this thread is underpants gnomish. What is step 2 between winning the propaganda war and winning the real war?

Im being a real dick here, but the only importance is that the two factions on this thread feel better or worse based on the latest propaganda. We aren’t the players is in this game, we are merely the audience. We are rooting for Our Teams. Yawn.

 

Take for instance the 2 million Palestinians all squeezed into Rafah, all waiting for their daily ration of flour and water, I'm sure there are hardliners in Israel that would like to finish them off and claim Gaza as part of greater Israel. But world opinion has shifted, and I'm sure Bibi is keenly aware of this. There will have to be a humanitarian solution for what becomes of the Palestinians trapped in Rafah, and ultimately a political solution, not a military one, much of that shifting of opinion has to do with how the story gets told.

 

Also it's probably true to say that the use of language can be difficult to gauge sometimes. You might mean to say something and to emphasise particular aspects but don't get it right.

I must admit I do tend to give a certain leeway to some people in this thread who are suffering but, obviously, that can only be taken so far. when it conflicts with others who are suffering a lot worse, 'the rubber meets the road', as they say.

At the end of the day there is a real situation at hand and we can't simply ignore that because it makes someone uncomfortable.

What the Israelis are doing is absolutely appalling and we passed the point of it being justifiable a long time ago. Since then the situation has only got worse.

 

Thanks for saying that. My American Jewish friends are on the same page. While they all agree on the necessity of getting rid of Hamas, they are rightly horrified by the terrible disaster in Gaza.
Having said that, it is hard to reconcile your care for Palestinians and generalizations like that : " Israel could end this, they would, but as long as Gazans remain committed to wiping out all the Jews, that's not going to happen, even if the US says so." Let's say this is not accurate or helpful to say the least.

 

I can't speak for others but I've tried not to. It's only when someone has said something contentious or which I've found questionable that I've raised an issue.

On the more general question of who to blame, frankly, I find the position of the American government almost as reprehensible and over almost as many years as the Israelis.

People drone on about how the Israeli government has backed the settlers in the west bank and the use of the IDF to aid them but various American governments have always given them cover and actual aid to do it.

That's why some of the complaints, (particularly in terms of it being a 'colonial' exercise), have a ring of truth.... NOT for the Israelis but for the Americans. That's also why the claim it's a 'client state' rings true for many people, particularly in the region, even if it's maybe unfair.

IOW some of it comes down not to antisemitism so much as anti-Americanism.

 

Yeah, that should have been 'as long as some Gazans...' shouldn't it.

But that's what I mean by giving a certain leeway to some people. We don't want to get into parsing posts like we're writing contract clauses

 

That is some interesting twist here. I guess the clock will run out sooner than later.

Biden Casts First Veto Since Gaza Ground Op Began; Israel Isn't Sure He'll Repeat This
Members of Israel's war cabinet were informed in recent days about growing difficulties within the Biden administration about continuing its total support for Israel, both due to internal political considerations and to the impression that the quiet support for the war by several Arab countries is weakening.

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news...eat-this/0000018c-4fa1-db23-ad9f-6ff90d220000