Hamas Attacks, Israel Responds

Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by Cascarino's Pizzeria, Oct 7, 2023.

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  1. yasik19

    yasik19 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Chelsea
    Ukraine
    Oct 21, 2004
    Daly City
    They planned and WANTED this to happen. Of course your regular Gazan who wasn't aware of this is not responsible, and it's horrible that they have to witness the destruction happening. However, it's also dishonest to say that since 2006, Gazans didn't have a clue of who Hamas is. The skirmishes, wars, rockets in all the years since Hamas came to power is something that one could reasonably anticipate could lead to what happened on 10/7.
     
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  2. Cascarino's Pizzeria

    Apr 29, 2001
    New Jersey, USA
    Bibi should surrender. He's deadly to both sides...both sides.
     
  3. chad

    chad Member+

    Jun 24, 1999
    Manhattan Beach
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Unsurprising silence about this here. Too short a connection to Hamas being anti-Jew rather than the progressively-washed "politically motivated", so best to ignore it and talk about congress and south park.
     
  4. yasik19

    yasik19 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Chelsea
    Ukraine
    Oct 21, 2004
    Daly City
    Sure, I wouldn't mind.
     
  5. Naughtius Maximus

    Jul 10, 2001
    Shropshire
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    Unfortunately NEITHER of these things are war, are they, so the expression, war is war' is meaningless in this context.

    One is a terrorist atrocity. The other is a war crime.
     
  6. Scissorkick Collins

    Dec 30, 2009
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Absolutely not, they’d be all over that too. I just don’t want to do all the work for the South Park writers!
     
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  7. luftmensch

    luftmensch Member+

    .
    United States
    May 4, 2006
    Petaluma
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    For most of human history that’s EXACTLY what war was, or at least included; the “war crimes” distinction is a relatively recent invention. So when you have a group of religious fanatic barbarians it’s not surprising that they would resort to very old tactics of war, especially when you throw their extreme misogyny into the mix.
     
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  8. Naughtius Maximus

    Jul 10, 2001
    Shropshire
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    I posted something the other day about an Israeli woman who'd researched Israeli school books who claimed many of them had maps of Israel which showed ALL of the area from the river to the sea, (to coin a phrase), as being 'Israel'.

    I don't know if that's right but, thinking about it, it would make sense seeing what we've seen over the past couple of decades.
     
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  9. Potowmack

    Potowmack Member+

    Apr 2, 2010
    Washington, DC
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I have no idea how many Gazans are going to die in this conflict. I'm in no way responsible for the position they're in, and have no ability to influence the final death toll.

    I mean, you can care as hard as you want about dead people in Gaza, but caring hard and $6 will get you a latte at Starbuck.
     
  10. Moishe

    Moishe Moderator
    Staff Member

    Boca Juniors
    Argentina
    Mar 6, 2005
    Here there and everywhere.
    Club:
    CA Boca Juniors
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    If you’ve been a regular in P&CE for a while then you’d have known to be hard no. How about you?

    Why in the context of the quoted post prompted you ask? Is this some sort of litmus test?
     
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  11. Naughtius Maximus

    Jul 10, 2001
    Shropshire
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    Well, yeah, as has been pointed out, the idea of war crime a few hundred years ago was a nonsense. it would have meant precisely nothing.

    The point is that modern democratic states are meant to hold themselves to a higher standard to terrorist organisations and, generally, they have.
     
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  12. yasik19

    yasik19 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Chelsea
    Ukraine
    Oct 21, 2004
    Daly City
    Yes, that's the concept known as Eretz Yisrael and is something many settlers believe in. After all, they believe in Israel that captures the geography from the days of King David. But thankfully, this is a minority in Israel. And yes, I know that now, it's the minority that Bibi caters to.
     
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  13. Naughtius Maximus

    Jul 10, 2001
    Shropshire
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    I was aware of the concept. I was just a bit surprised to see it in kids books in modern times.

    How many children get to use them, mind, I'm not sure.

    Very few hopefully.
     
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  14. ceezmad

    ceezmad Member+

    Mar 4, 2010
    Chicago
    Club:
    Chicago Red Stars
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The Lefty youth may be woke regarding the suffering of the Palestinians, but at least they have not lost their traditional American stupidity regarding geography.

     
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  15. Quakes05

    Quakes05 Member+

    Oct 1, 2005
    birthplace of MLS
    that and they have no military to speak of, they're sort of a rag tag, loosely organized group of kids who used to throw rocks at IDF, now they have RPGs and Kalashnikovs but no conventional military gear of any kind, no central command.
     
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  16. Naughtius Maximus

    Jul 10, 2001
    Shropshire
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    Let's just say the thread has 'drifted', somewhat.
     
  17. luftmensch

    luftmensch Member+

    .
    United States
    May 4, 2006
    Petaluma
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That is true, but I’ll bet if you ask both Hamas and Israel whether the attacks were acts of war, they’ll say they were.

    But regardless, as has been pointed out already Israel hasn’t yet sunk to that level. Sure they’re engaging in the kind of wanton impersonal destruction that’s the hallmark of modern warfare, but we’re not seeing the up-close-and-personal hatred and cruelty that was on display in the 10/7 attacks.
     
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  18. luftmensch

    luftmensch Member+

    .
    United States
    May 4, 2006
    Petaluma
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yeah I guess in that situation gang rape and baby killing is about all you have left.
     
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  19. stanger

    stanger BigSoccer Supporter

    Nov 29, 2008
    Columbus
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Quite honestly, considering the brutality of the 10/7 attack, I don't think it mattered who was in charge in Israel. Nor should it, IMO. Any country that is attacked in that manner and has it's citizens kidnapped would respond in similar fashion.
     
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  20. stanger

    stanger BigSoccer Supporter

    Nov 29, 2008
    Columbus
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Which has been my point since the beginning.
     
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  21. Quakes05

    Quakes05 Member+

    Oct 1, 2005
    birthplace of MLS
    I'm sure we agree that Hamas has to go. But, as Kamala Harris said the other day, how the IDF goes about eliminating Hamas matters. Laying waste to Gaza is a choice Israel is making. We shouldn't pretend that inflicting this level of cruelty on an entire population is the only way Israel can go after Hamas.
     
  22. Cascarino's Pizzeria

    Apr 29, 2001
    New Jersey, USA
    Yes, bombing apt blocks from thousands of feet is more impersonal hence not horrific.
     
  23. yasik19

    yasik19 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Chelsea
    Ukraine
    Oct 21, 2004
    Daly City
    I know you've brought up this point in the past, but I just think this is an oversimplification. Yes, they don't have a mechanized division or an air force/navy, but I've listened to a # of podcasts with both former Army Rangers and special forces in IDF and they all say Hamas is way more prepared and armed than people give them credit for. They are not the level of Hezbollah, but they do plan/act/execute how a regular army would. They also have units, brigades, and divisions, as it would be the case in any army. So while they don't have the sophisticated weaponry (though they do have anti-tank missiles and a number of other advanced weapons), they are very far from "rag tag kids with AKs."
     
  24. yasik19

    yasik19 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Chelsea
    Ukraine
    Oct 21, 2004
    Daly City
    I wikied this guy and he appears to not be an anti-semite. With your permission and blessings, I will post the video below from the same hearing. I hope it doesn't offend your sensitivities.

     
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  25. Naughtius Maximus

    Jul 10, 2001
    Shropshire
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    Yeah, that's probably true. Of course, terrorists say lots of things.
    It's probably true to say the atrocity of the attack by hamas WAS to elicit a harsh response.

    As to whether we've seen Israel respond in a similar way, I wouldn't mind betting some of the methods used to gather information from captured hamas fighters has been through torture. We just haven't seen it reported on the news.

    There's also the point, of course, that troops from societies which haven't been brutalised in the same way people from Gaza have will find it hard to demonstrate THAT level of depravity.

    That was something mentioned in a documentary I saw on the SS a few days back. The toll taken on the individuals themselves was considerable.

    Israeli troops, some of which will be conscripts I believe, must be feeling a bit queasy anyway I'd think.
     
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