Hamas Attacks, Israel Responds

Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by Cascarino's Pizzeria, Oct 7, 2023.

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  1. M

    M Member+

    Feb 18, 2000
    Via Ventisette
    Forced removal of the population of Gaza under the premise there’s no civilian infrastructure left to support them.
     
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  2. Nico Limmat

    Nico Limmat Member+

    Oct 24, 1999
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    Hopefully there is stark sense of realisation within Israel and the wider Jewish community worldwide that things have to change for the Palestinians. Not due to reasons of empathy for the other side, but out of self-interest when it comes to peace and security.

    So what if there is no united Palestinian representative body to negotiate with? Decisions have been made for them, without their involvement, for decades. Nothing stops Israel from immediately improving Palestinian lives - especially in the West Bank. Nothing.

    World opinion has definitely changed. This includes countries historically most friendly towards Israel. The time to act is now.
     
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  3. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
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    I don't think Dems should say that. I will just personally enjoy a moment of schadenfreude. Same as I will laugh sardonically at all the liberatarians when trump takes their guns and they get to vote in elections where Trump always wins 95% of the vote. Maybe the righteousness of their protests votes will keep them warm at night at starvation cove

    Of course Muslim voters should use their political power within the Dem tent but planning to elect Donald Trump? You might as well pack your go bag
     
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  4. Belgian guy

    Belgian guy Member+

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    Yes, I am increasingly coming around to the idea that this is the only thing that can make sense of their strategy so far. They don't envision a Gaza with a Palestinian population post-operation.
     
  5. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
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    Fairly clear shift in rhetoric from the US over the weekend.

    SecDef Austin spoke of the risk of strategic defeat for Israel

    Austin, in remarks to the Reagan National Defense Forum in Simi Valley, California, said he has personally pushed Israeli leaders to avoid civilian casualties, to shun "irresponsible rhetoric" and to prevent violence by settlers in the West Bank.

    He also said he's pressed Israel to dramatically expand Gaza's access to humanitarian aid, adding that he expected more deliveries of aid "in the days ahead."

    "In this kind of a fight, the center of gravity is the civilian population. And if you drive them into the arms of the enemy, you replace a tactical victory with a strategic defeat," Austin said, drawing on his experience as a four-star general overseeing the battle against Islamic State militants.

    "So I have repeatedly made clear to Israel's leaders that protecting Palestinian civilians in Gaza is both a moral responsibility and strategic imperative."​

     
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  6. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
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    I saw a 'buffer zone' is floated - but the US already said they won't support this.

    I am not sure there is any real plan. I think Bibi and others are simply using the domestic blank cheque they have for mass carnage and then worry about what happens some other day.
     
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  7. Belgian guy

    Belgian guy Member+

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    I was responding more to the many angry reactions I have seen from liberals/Dems at these anti-Biden undertakings from various Muslim-American groups. You are not going to bring any of them back underneath the canopy of the Dem tent with angry statements about them suffering even more under Trump. Frankly that will confirm their already existing impression that they only have value to the Democrats as a voting bloc every couple of years and not as constituents whose concerns are worthy of being heard.
    Dems serious about the threat to democracy should perhaps instead do the effort of meeting these folks where they are and trying to see if there is a way back to Biden for them.
     
  8. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
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    There was interesting data out that shows support for how things are going in Gaza trends white+male+old+GOP

    So there is a generational/racial component here that Biden is finding himself on the wrong side of.

    Personally I felt this was inevitable when I watched mainstream media in the early days - nightly wall to wall coverage of carnage was bound to bury the initial shock of 7 Oct. It's the way this has gone every time before. The shocking Casus Belli here gave a much wider permission structure but not unlimited.
     
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  9. Moishe

    Moishe Moderator
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    A singular incident I agree would be more difficult to pull off, but one s-vest can do immense damage. Imagine multiple simultaneously? Inserting a very small number of terrorists is a lot easier I’d think than what happened 10/7.
     
  10. Moishe

    Moishe Moderator
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    Are they though? I’m not seeing or hearing a lot of that out of Israel. Maybe you can shed some light. Most of what I know is that it was huge prior to 10/7 and post much much less.
     
  11. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
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    Good thread on why Biden has less leverage than you think

     
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  12. Belgian guy

    Belgian guy Member+

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    https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/...ecomposing-gaza-hospital-evacuated-rcna127533
     
  13. Belgian guy

    Belgian guy Member+

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  14. Naughtius Maximus

    Jul 10, 2001
    Shropshire
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    For the individuals involved but probably more so for their families, it must be absolutely appalling.

    Back in the day I worked with a woman whose husband was in a paratrooper regiment and he was being shipped out to the Falklands when that was kicking off. Nobody really knew what to expect and we'd find her most days looking a bit 'teary'. We'd told her not to come in to work but she said it was better she keep busy.

    Hard to know what to say or do, tbh :(
     
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  15. Naughtius Maximus

    Jul 10, 2001
    Shropshire
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    So, hang on... a fella who's actually fought against muslim extremists thinks that driving a civilian population into the arms of the radicals might not be such a great idea?

    Well, that doesn't sound right :)
     
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  16. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
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    Austin is one of those woke leftists who don't understand modern warfare.
     
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  17. Naughtius Maximus

    Jul 10, 2001
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    I remember canvassing in the UK GE back in 2019 and we had various volunteers who tried explaining to voters why they were idiots who were too stupid to understand our 9 dimensional chess approach to politics.

    Let's just say it wasn't entirely successful.
     
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  18. Naughtius Maximus

    Jul 10, 2001
    Shropshire
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    Chelsea FC
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    Sorry, maybe didn't make myself clear. I was talking about leaders OUTSIDE of Israel.

    IOW the longer this carries on it makes it more likely that the leaders in US, UK, EU, etc. won't be able to be as supportive of Israel as they have been because their voters will be more engaged and many of them will be sympathetic toe Palestinians,

    Sometimes it won't make a difference such as our elections next year when labour will almost certainly get in but if the political situation gets tight, UK politicians won't be able to openly support the Israeli government. Well, not if they want to get elected they won't.

    I suspect it will be the same in the US where Biden's previous line of, 'If Israel didn't exist we'd have to invent it', is looking... well, unwise, shall we say.
     
  19. Naughtius Maximus

    Jul 10, 2001
    Shropshire
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    Chelsea FC
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    England
    I saw one report that said if the IDF had responded with more alarm to the reports that were available, including from their own people, they could have drastically reduced the amount of carnage on the day, simply by having more people there.
     
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  20. Cascarino's Pizzeria

    Apr 29, 2001
    New Jersey, USA
    Practically a Muslim extremist living in a tunnel
     
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  21. tomásbernal

    tomásbernal Member+

    Sep 4, 2007
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    Oh, yeah, I'm sure the people who took the video didn't say anything shitty to anyone on that train to begin with.
     
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  22. Moishe

    Moishe Moderator
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    Your reference to voters threw me off. Is there another voting body I’m unaware of?
     
  23. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
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    EDIT: This post below was written before I read Jitty's post about Secretary Austin's remarks. Seems like Team Biden is doing this right.

    That's beginning to be a worry of mine, too.

    And that's where I believe Biden has a small window to act here. He needs to either get Israel to limit its war aims and methods, or he's got to go Paul Sorvino on Ray Liotta in Goodfellas. Give him an insultingly small wad of cash and wash his hands of Israel as long as Bibi is the PM.

    It's early days, and the first part of the war has gone more or less exactly as I expected. Now, for me anyway, is where we're about to get to a crossroads: is Israel acting aggressively albeit sensibly? Or is the political leadership acting out of rage or some other incentive? As Israel chooses one of those paths over the other and reaches a point of no return, if it's a choice not in keeping with US interests, Biden has to call Bibi's bluff.
     
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  24. Naughtius Maximus

    Jul 10, 2001
    Shropshire
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    Well, I'm now not clear which voters you ARE aware of, so... :D

    Anyway, I'm talking about voters in the UK, for example, some of whom have decided that, on balance, they're more sympathetic to the Palesrinians, (as opposed to hamas, obviously), than they are of the Israeli state. The precise details don't matter in these terms. The point is it means fewer voters will be prepared vote for a leader who openly supports the Israeli State.
     
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  25. Belgian guy

    Belgian guy Member+

    Club Brugge
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    Aug 19, 2002
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    It's not even slow-walking into a massive humanitarian disaster any more, but more like sprinting.

    I guess I understand why the Biden admin is pre-emptively already distancing itself from this.
     
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