Hamas Attacks, Israel Responds

Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by Cascarino's Pizzeria, Oct 7, 2023.

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  1. Belgian guy

    Belgian guy Member+

    Club Brugge
    Belgium
    Aug 19, 2002
    Belgium
    Club:
    Club Brugge KV
    I cannot think of any long-term Gaza strategy in which a huge number of civilian casualties would make sense, unless the idea is to displace all of the current population. And I can't imagine that the international community would be thrilled by such a prospect.

    At this point Israel seems to care little about outside criticism, but public opinion is already so bad in many countries that leaders are getting uneasy as it is. How do you think that situation will evolve if three, four or five times as many Palestinian citizens have been killed?
     
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  2. Belgian guy

    Belgian guy Member+

    Club Brugge
    Belgium
    Aug 19, 2002
    Belgium
    Club:
    Club Brugge KV
    Well it is pretty clear that there is no vision for a post-war Gaza.
    And the only (quite cynical and cruel) vision in which a huge amount of citizen casualties would make sense is one in which Gaza will no longer belong to the Palestinians.
    In that regard, the idiot members of the Israeli government and various MKs public statements about the West/the EU taking the 2+ million people as refugees makes some sense.
     
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  3. Khan

    Khan Member+

    Mar 16, 2000
    On the road
    I think that, on one level, bibi kinda "wanted" something like this to happen, in the same way that W kinda "wanted" something bad to happen:

    In both cases, floundering popularity rates were raised, and both bibi and W have/had something to "fight against," or "campaign on."
     
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  4. Naughtius Maximus

    Jul 10, 2001
    Shropshire
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    Stop being daft. You know that's not what I meant.

    I'm saying that we keep hearing that nobody has had terrorists dug in among a population, (they have), or implying that this is a war of equal sides, (despite the fact that the other side's options basically consists of firing a pop gun at you), or that nobody has ever had to deal with someone who says your claim to a piece of land isn't valid, (despite that being PRECISELY the situation in northern Ireland), or that the situation in south Africa was totally different, (well, not really, no), or that having differential voting rights and certain groups of 'lesser' people being moved into ;bantustans' isn't apartheid, (coz, y'know... saying that is rude), or that hamas is telling their children that Israelis aren't as worthy as you are, (when it turns out you're doing basically the same damn thing).

    Quite honestly THIS is why the Israelis are losing the public relations war in this conflict and why their ability to claim the moral high ground has been fundamentally damaged.

    It's the constant strawmen, dissembling, obfuscations and double standards being used in the discussion. That's why most of the arguments have to go back to 70-80 years ago in a ludicrous attempt to try and look for a comparison.

    if the Israelis want to portray themselves as a modern democratic society then they need to start acting like one.

    if they want to be able to control Gaza, (at least, to the extent of dictating what government they have), then they should never have walked out in the first place. Of course, that would also mean accepting some responsibility for the community there in the same that we did in NI.

    The Israelis seem to want the control without any of the responsibility.

    As I said, even in Mosul the western forces that got rid of ISIS ensured there would be a functioning government there.
     
  5. charlie15

    charlie15 Member+

    Mar 9, 2000
    Bethesda, Md
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Irony is DEAD…. Totally buried.
     
  6. Naughtius Maximus

    Jul 10, 2001
    Shropshire
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    I mean, this sounds like the same argument that everyone in that position makes. 'This particular enemy is uniquely evil and they must be dealt with harshly... it's the only language they understand'.

    It's not entirely convincing, tbh.
    Never heard of the guy so I googled him.

    https://www.iol.co.za/sundayindepen...conflict-e52ec05c-227b-47e3-8cdd-a1ae68167785

    "If you go to Israel, I promise you, at a shop or restaurant, everybody goes to any place they want.

    “If they want to buy clothes or if they want to buy this, they do that. So where is apartheid?” he said.

    He said even universities in Israel were non-discriminatory. “You don’t find townships which are for Israelis and townships which are for the other section.

    It seems he thinks any Palestinian can go anywhere in Israel which is, y'know... a point of view i guess :)

     
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  7. LastBoyscout

    LastBoyscout Member+

    Mar 6, 2013
    You can't but then again according to Israels own numbers the percentage of combatants killed vs civilians killed is even worse for Israels retaliation in Gaza. As it stands right now hamas killed more military personell in their terrorist attack than the IDF did so far. So what do you call that?

    In theory the intention of an action does matter. In praxis to the people on the ground it doesn't matter if you are shot bei a gloating terrorist or exploded by a righteous bomb.
     
  8. charlie15

    charlie15 Member+

    Mar 9, 2000
    Bethesda, Md
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Lekota is a washed up politician in SA, former member of the ANC who left the party to create his own, more than a decade ago. His current party got .025% of the vote, he is not an elected official and has pretty much no credibility. The guy went on a 5 days paid trip to Israel (not considerable time by any stretch) and had been blasted by all sides in SA upon his return for this statement. Hardly a serious person.
     
  9. Naughtius Maximus

    Jul 10, 2001
    Shropshire
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    Can I just point out that you're being extremely rude by asking that question :mad:

    But, to answer your question directly, because it's not In the Israeli's, (well the Israeli right, more accurately), interest to have peace.

    If they had peace there'd have to be a border and that would mean they can't keep stealing land.
     
  10. Moishe

    Moishe Moderator
    Staff Member

    Boca Juniors
    Argentina
    Mar 6, 2005
    Here there and everywhere.
    Club:
    CA Boca Juniors
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    The last sentence was to read “the animosity has always and will always be there”. It’s very sad but true. To the rest of your post, that was the absolute best deal the Palestinians were going to get shy of getting up and leaving the region.

    There was nearly 20 years of relative “peace” and neither party or the global community made any legitimate attempt to facilitate a peace deal. Israel and many of the gulf states made and succeeded in establishing relations. It could have been as good a starting point as could be asked for.

    Do you think after two months of devastation that in hindsight the average Palestinian would have been better off under the deal Arafat walked away from? I do, especially since it could be used as a launching point for more negotiations. A deal that good is likely never to present itself in our lifetime. Sad but true.
     
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  11. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Fascist Hellscape
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Belgium
    Right. How is destroying the civilian infrastructure and displacing nearly 2 million people helping achieve the military/political goals, unless we are talking large scale ethnic cleansing

    75% of the population is said to be displaced
     
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  12. charlie15

    charlie15 Member+

    Mar 9, 2000
    Bethesda, Md
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I am sure this has been raised privately with the Israel offices. That is is being done publicly now shows the level of concerns within the administration.

    Top U.S. officials warned Israel to protect civilians as it resumed aerial attacks on Gaza after a week-long pause in fighting, including in the south, where the majority of the Strip’s population is now crowded after Israel instructed people in the north to evacuate. “Too many Palestinian civilians have been killed,” Vice President Harris said Saturday. Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin said he “personally pushed Israeli leaders to avoid civilian casualties,” saying that a failure to do so would drive Palestinians “into the arms of the enemy,” undermining its war efforts against Hamas. Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said the military was determining “safe areas” for Gazan civilians.
     
  13. Naughtius Maximus

    Jul 10, 2001
    Shropshire
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    Interesting article in the grauniad about Netanyahu's little legal 'problems that also relates to the discussion I had with moishe...

    I have long rejected claims that Israel is an apartheid state. Now I believe that is where it is heading
    I grew up in South Africa, and vigorously refuted parallels with Israel. But in the Netanyahu era, the charge is becoming fact

    Israel 2023, South Africa 1948. I’ve lived through it before: power grabbing, fascism and racism – the destruction of democracy. Israel is going where South Africa was 75 years ago. It’s like watching the replay of a horror movie.

    In 1948, as a teenager in Cape Town, I followed the results of the 26 May election on a giant board on a newspaper building. The winner-takes-all electoral system produced distorted results: the Afrikaner Nationalist party, with its smaller partner, won 79 parliamentary seats against 74 for the United party and its smaller partner.

    But the Nats, as they were called, in fact won only 37.7% of the vote against the opposition’s 49.2%. Although the opposition received more votes, the Nats said they had a majority and could do what they wanted.

    In the Israel of 2023, I’m reliving some of these same experiences. Our proportional election system can distort results as well: last November, Likud, with its smaller partners, won 64 seats against 56 for the opposition. In fact, the rightwing bloc won by only 0.6% of the vote. The 0.6% government says it represents the will of the majority and can do whatever it wants. South Africa enjoyed democracy – that is, among the whites who made up 20% of the population. Black people had no right to vote; only some so-called Coloureds and Asian South Africans could vote. Those who were not white suffered heavy racial discrimination in every part of their lives.

    In Israel, Arabs, who form about 21% of the population, can vote. But they suffer discrimination: Muslims and Christians are not drafted, and those who do not do army service lose out on benefits. The Jewish National Fund owns about 13% of Israel’s land and bars non-Jews – that is, Arabs – from owning or renting it. The coalition promises to deepen the discrimination. It has already threatened to withdraw millions of shekels meant for upgrading poor Arab living conditions.

     
  14. The Irish Rover

    The Irish Rover Member+

    Aug 1, 2010
    Dublin
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Ireland Republic
    On the substance, you're obviously no someone given to self-doubt, never mind self-criricism, so I guess I'll have to do the job on your behalf.

    Clear thinkers avoid what IIRC used to be called the loudmouth's 4-step.
    Step 1: lob a potty-mouthed insult .
    Step 2: assert that what you said, unclearly, was very clear.
    Step 3: declare that something that didn't happen - "bomb out a hospital" - happened, then
    Step 4: allege that non/not-quite event is A-OK by someone in the hope - justified by experience - that your claque will think you're smart.
     
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  15. Cascarino's Pizzeria

    Apr 29, 2001
    New Jersey, USA
    Not possible. Tunnels.
     
  16. Naughtius Maximus

    Jul 10, 2001
    Shropshire
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    It's a strawman argument anyway. I haven't heard ANYONE trying to 'justify' the inhumanity' of 7th Oct. Saying what the background was isn't justifying it.
     
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  17. Moishe

    Moishe Moderator
    Staff Member

    Boca Juniors
    Argentina
    Mar 6, 2005
    Here there and everywhere.
    Club:
    CA Boca Juniors
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    So warfare and its responses are static and have never evolved…or devolved. There is a nuance to this conflict around the personalities of the region you can’t grasp. The world isn’t linear nor does it see it from the perspective of an Englishman.

    Nothing you posted in regards to Lekota contradicts what I posted. You see Gaza as occupied, I do not.
     
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  18. Moishe

    Moishe Moderator
    Staff Member

    Boca Juniors
    Argentina
    Mar 6, 2005
    Here there and everywhere.
    Club:
    CA Boca Juniors
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    A former politician lacking credibility? That never happens. What makes his opinion any less credible than the Coates guy Andy referenced? Some see him as credible and many don’t. He’s also trying to sell books is he not?
     
  19. Naughtius Maximus

    Jul 10, 2001
    Shropshire
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    It might just be my impression but it seems there are fewer casualties now than we were getting before. I mean, still too many, obviously but fewer than before.

    Does that seem accurate?

    Maybe it's just me looking for a silver lining where there isn't it.
     
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  20. Naughtius Maximus

    Jul 10, 2001
    Shropshire
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    A few points.

    1. Mosul isn't in England.
    2. Lekota sounds like a complete moron and, more to the point, a liar who thinks he can gaslight people because of his past, saying that up is down and down is up.
    3. I didn't say Gaza was occupied before 7th Oct, (although it's probably getting there now). I said is was besieged.
     
  21. Naughtius Maximus

    Jul 10, 2001
    Shropshire
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    Well, the clear implication is that you're answering your own question but, then again, there isn't anywhere for them to flee, so...
     
  22. charlie15

    charlie15 Member+

    Mar 9, 2000
    Bethesda, Md
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I don’t know about the Coates dude but Lekota is a washed up pol in South Africa and has to zero credibility. Beyond that, he spent 5 days in Israel not a “considerable “ time by any stretch. He went there with a group of fringe SA pols on a junket / trip paid by a pro Israel lobby in SA. He has been rightly blasted as well upon his return.
     
  23. The Irish Rover

    The Irish Rover Member+

    Aug 1, 2010
    Dublin
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Ireland Republic
    #7123 The Irish Rover, Dec 3, 2023
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2023
    Fair comment. Permit me to return the favour by adapting it:
    Well for some of us who are not Pro-Palestinian, it seems we have to not only ignore the 10/7 attacks but say there's no reason at all behind the rise of Netanyahu and the peace camp's annihilation and whatever Hamas does in return is at least "understandable", if not OK.
    Let us assume that you are an Israeli. What would you do differently? Why do you think that course of action would work? Why do you think it's never been tried?
     
  24. Naughtius Maximus

    Jul 10, 2001
    Shropshire
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    You can't have an opinion as to whether the sun comes up tomorrow. It's a matter of fact and his statement that any Palestinian can go anywhere in Israel is clearly nonsense.

    I mean, even the ISRAELIS don't claim that.

    The apartheid matter, as I've said, is probably more complicated but whether it's the 'full fat' version or just the 'lite' doesn't really improve the issue, does it.

    This is what annoys people about this. The utterly ridiculous attempt to gaslight people that what they can see with their OWN EYES isn't there.
     
  25. Naughtius Maximus

    Jul 10, 2001
    Shropshire
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    Isn't the guy simply corrupt? Someone who tells lies for money doesn't seem like someone we should take seriously.
     

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