Hamas Attacks, Israel Responds

Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by Cascarino's Pizzeria, Oct 7, 2023.

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  1. Cascarino's Pizzeria

    Apr 29, 2001
    New Jersey, USA
    I can top that. Horsetooth jackass, terrorism funder and all-around bigot Ian Paisley was a Protestant minister! But even he came around too.

    irish-paisley.jpg
     
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  2. Naughtius Maximus

    Jul 10, 2001
    Shropshire
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    Well, not quite, no.

    The issue wasn't whether 'military force' could be used. After all, the British army in NI used military force.

    The issue was about the use of heavy weapons and large scale indiscriminate force like shelling, missile strikes and bombing, as opposed to small arms, mass surveillance and other methods.

    Of course, I can imagine circumstances where you'd need the capability to be able to target people with larger, more powerful weapons, (when they're holed up in a building, for instance), but that's not what we're talking about here.
    TBH it was of an aside... a comment regarding HIS comment that they were the 'de facto' or 'du jour' government.

    But I don't think it's relevant now because the IDF has already established a large degree of control in the area as the occupying force.

    IOW we're past that point.
    Yeah, OK... 'spose :)
     
  3. Potowmack

    Potowmack Member+

    Apr 2, 2010
    Washington, DC
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    DC United
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    That’s a really odd position to take. As creepy and weird as the North Korean government might be, everyone recognizes them as the legitimate government of that country. There’s never been a requirement for a regime to be elected, reflective of the will of the people or whatever other niceties we expect of our governments in the West, for that regime to be recognized as the legitimate government of a particular political unit.

    If Hamas isn’t the government of Gaza, then who is?

    You’ve mentioned the IRA a few times, but that was a very different situation from what we’re seeing now, because the IRA never took political and military control of Northern Ireland. If it had done so the way Hamas did in Gaza, the UK government wouldn’t have restricted itself to trying to arrest IRA leaders. They would have rolled in the tanks.
     
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  4. Naughtius Maximus

    Jul 10, 2001
    Shropshire
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    Also BFF with McGuinness...

    upload_2023-12-2_22-17-9.jpeg
     
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  5. Moishe

    Moishe Moderator
    Staff Member

    Boca Juniors
    Argentina
    Mar 6, 2005
    Here there and everywhere.
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    CA Boca Juniors
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    I think you’ll find that accepts Israel as a de-facto state but their charter still does not recognize their right to exist. You might want to read their charter and updates through the years.
     
  6. Naughtius Maximus

    Jul 10, 2001
    Shropshire
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    And yet, as I've pointed out before, the good friday agreement was accepted DESPITE the protestant DUP coming out against it. We need to go around these people. Not just give into them.

    Also, bluntly, I don't think anyone knows what the people in Gaza think although I dare say they're probably a lot less sanguine about things than they were before.
     
  7. Ethos

    Ethos Member+

    Houston Dynamo
    Apr 28, 2019
    Houston
    The PA are not in control of Gaza.
     
  8. Moishe

    Moishe Moderator
    Staff Member

    Boca Juniors
    Argentina
    Mar 6, 2005
    Here there and everywhere.
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    And yet you continue to think that what works in the UK will work in the Middle East. You underestimate the difference between the two regions
     
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  9. Cascarino's Pizzeria

    Apr 29, 2001
    New Jersey, USA
    No, it's not. But could any lessons be learned from NI or other places around the globe? Insanity is doing the same thing over & over, yadda yadda
     
  10. yasik19

    yasik19 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Chelsea
    Ukraine
    Oct 21, 2004
    Daly City
    I think in many cases, absolutely, that's how experience and wisdom is defined. In this case, I do not think most examples Andy has brought up are equatable.
     
  11. Naughtius Maximus

    Jul 10, 2001
    Shropshire
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legitimacy_of_the_State_of_Israel

    ...

    In the early 1990s, Israeli prime minister Yitzhak Rabin and Palestinian political leader Yasser Arafat exchanged the Letters of Mutual Recognition. Pursuant to this correspondence, the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) formally recognized Israel's right to exist as a sovereign state while Israel formally recognized the PLO as a legitimate entity representing the Palestinian people.

    That looks pretty straightforward and I thought Mahmoud Abbas also accepted it a few years back.

    The Irish free state also didn't 'accept northern Ireland's right to exist' either and that was the case right up until the good friday agreement in 1998.

    They didn't have the right to exist but what they DID have was the fact they're part of the UK with some big-arse nuclear weapons, the British army, navy and air force.

    It's the same for Israel.

    Someone's 'right to exist' is an entirely meaningless construct when there's feck-all you can do about it.

    I think, tbh, this is more of the sort sort lawyerly nonsense we get in this matter where the fact that some people won't accept reality means we must have conflict with no purpose.
     
  12. Naughtius Maximus

    Jul 10, 2001
    Shropshire
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    Er, yeah... that's what I said, :cautious:
     
  13. Naughtius Maximus

    Jul 10, 2001
    Shropshire
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    I haven't just mentioned NI.

    I, and others, have mentioned it and also WWII in various places, Mosul, European terrorist situations, etc. Most of them have been raised in response to you and the people supporting IDF saying this aspect or that aspect is totally unique.

    The truth is it's NOT unique... not all.
     
  14. Moishe

    Moishe Moderator
    Staff Member

    Boca Juniors
    Argentina
    Mar 6, 2005
    Here there and everywhere.
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    , “Hamas rejects any alternative to the full and complete liberation of Palestine, from the river to the sea.“

    That is from the 2017 Hamas revision of the charter.

    https://www.wilsoncenter.org/article/doctrine-hamas

    “Over is the time Hamas spent discussing recognizing Israel. Now Hamas will discuss when we will wipe out Israel,”

    The above is from Yahya Sinwar in 2017. Maybe I’m taking it out of context but to it doesn’t read as recognition of Israel’s right to exist.

    https://www.newsweek.com/hamas-gaza-leader-we-will-wipe-out-israel-not-disarm-689585

    “Hamas and Fatah differ most notably in their approach to recognizing Israeli statehood and in their approach to advocating for a Palestinian state. Fatah recognizes an Israeli state while Hamas does not. Fatah also supports diplomacy in its quest for an independent Palestinian state, while Hamas supports armed resistance in pursuit of this goal. Previously, Hamas was strongly against the Oslo Peace Accords the PLO struck unilaterally in the 1990s which put a stop to PLO violence alongside an agreement for a two-state solution. That deal also set up the PA, which has attempted and failed to reach multiple peace agreements with Israel.”


    https://www.vox.com/politics/2023/10/10/23911661/hamas-israel-war-gaza-palestine-explainer


    What am I missing?
     
  15. Moishe

    Moishe Moderator
    Staff Member

    Boca Juniors
    Argentina
    Mar 6, 2005
    Here there and everywhere.
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    None of those examples work either. It’s about the parties involved and the centuries long animosity and distrust they have for one another. This conflict cannot separate the reality that religion for better or worse is a part of this conflict.

    Spend some time is Israel the Israeli side will make sense. You may disagree with but you’ll understand. Regardless of the protests on judicial reform, one thing has always unify both sides and that is it’s existence from anyone trying to end them.
     
  16. Naughtius Maximus

    Jul 10, 2001
    Shropshire
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    Isn't that what I said? The PA, PLO, (and Fatah according to that), have all accepted Israel's right to exist

    Hamas hasn't but then Ireland didn't accept northern Ireland's 'right to exist' either on the same basis but, so what?!

    Of course, the other thing all that makes clear is that Israel has just been stringing the PA along whilst continuing their invasion of the west bank and killing Palestinians so them 'accepting Israels right to exist' hasn't helped them one iota.
     
  17. Moishe

    Moishe Moderator
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    Boca Juniors
    Argentina
    Mar 6, 2005
    Here there and everywhere.
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    Not exactly. There is a big difference between recognizing and accepting the right to exist and that it does exist. The context from Hamas leadership spells it out. Comments not long before October 7th is very clear what Hamas’ end game is.
     
  18. Naughtius Maximus

    Jul 10, 2001
    Shropshire
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    I think you'll find the catholic and protestant conflict in NI was also about religion and has been going on for many hundreds of years.

    As to my 'understanding' the Israeli position. I think we're all pretty much familiar with racism, dehumanisation, apartheid, (albeit the apartheid-lite version in Israel's case), and 'settlement' among inferior people.
     
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  19. luftmensch

    luftmensch Member+

    .
    United States
    May 4, 2006
    Petaluma
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    Los Angeles Galaxy
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    You’re right, there are a number of examples of similar disputes over a region claimed as the holy land by three major religions who’ve been at each other’s throats for centuries, involving a state established as a home for a people who suffered the worst genocide in history and that has never been fully recognized as legitimate by its neighbors and have basically had to defend their right to exist from the beginning. That shit is a dime a dozen.
     
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  20. Deadtigers

    Deadtigers Member+

    Jul 23, 2015
    Independent Republic of the Bronx, NY
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
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    #7070 Deadtigers, Dec 2, 2023
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2023
    In a debate about police murdering a girl with a knife, you insisted that I had to watch the video to comment. I mentioned I had stopped watching murder videos. I bring that up because here you are being presented by a well researched article from a source that is pro Israel, not anti-semitic but questioning the way Israel conducts wars. But it is too much for you to grasp to read the article, you believe the IDF is doing it's best to keep casualties low but won't read evidence to the contrary. A Hamas fighter goes home to his family and the whole house filled with 3 generations of his family is bombed. A Israeli soldier says that we normally believe when. A soldier leaves the battle front they are not part of the frontline and wouldn't want to be considered fair game so why are we making them fair game.

    I am sorry the music festival aspect of the 10/7 attack hit very close to home but you do yourself a disservice by burying your head in the sand and repeating the same lines we have been provided for Israel for the last 40-50 years.
     
  21. Deadtigers

    Deadtigers Member+

    Jul 23, 2015
    Independent Republic of the Bronx, NY
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Ghana
    It is just the insanity that TikTok is big with Gen Z and rather than create better TikToks, they want to shut it down. You do see how it looks like if we can't win the message award then we will just shut down the other messages. Not to mention the region anti-semitic posts going on in twitter but has gotten ADL approval. It is literally sending the message that as long as your pro-Israel we don't care if you don't like Jewish people as a whole.
     
  22. Moishe

    Moishe Moderator
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    Boca Juniors
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    Mar 6, 2005
    Here there and everywhere.
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    As I’m pretty sure I mentioned, religion aside, the region and the history just aren’t the same. The rest of your post is mostly bullshit clearly written by someone who’s never been to Israel, spent time with Jewish Israelis, Arab Israelis, Bedouins…I’ll acknowledge that Israel has issues just like any country in this world. That said, it is still better than most of them. Visit, meet the people and I guarantee you’ll come back with a different perspective. Anyone can write an article making any place sound awful if you find the people that have the view you want. It cuts both ways which is why experiencing it will give you an honest perspective.

    As far as apartheid lite, Mosiuoa Lekota who was ANC, incarcerated with Mandela and spent considerable time in Israel doesn’t feel that in spite of its issues is definitely not an Apartheid state. I think he’s a pretty credible opinion on the matter.
     
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  23. Deadtigers

    Deadtigers Member+

    Jul 23, 2015
    Independent Republic of the Bronx, NY
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Ghana
    One side claims to be the good guy. Maybe don't spend decades with foreign policy messaging that you're the only Democratic Nation in the Middle East and your similar to The Western nations in Europe and America and then decide that you don't have to follow the rules that are accepted by Western Nations regarding military conflict. You want to be the good guys but violate every law that's designed and written by the good guys on how to operate.
     
  24. Moishe

    Moishe Moderator
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    Boca Juniors
    Argentina
    Mar 6, 2005
    Here there and everywhere.
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    Leaving the frontlines doesn’t make you any less a combatant.

    “”Honey I’m home!”

    “Oh habibi how was the war today?”
     
  25. Deadtigers

    Deadtigers Member+

    Jul 23, 2015
    Independent Republic of the Bronx, NY
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Ghana
    And what if you were on the other side. Can you understand that or does the computer malfunction? So sad that the oppressed broke the rules of behavior.
     

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