Hamas Attacks, Israel Responds

Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by Cascarino's Pizzeria, Oct 7, 2023.

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  1. stanger

    stanger BigSoccer Supporter

    Nov 29, 2008
    Columbus
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    “A constant theme from the footage is the celebratory and jubilant nature of the Hamas terrorists as they murder innocent Israelis, and their vocal belief that these murders were being carried out for Allah. Some of the most disturbing footage is from the Hamas massacre at the Re’im music festival and from the Hamas rampages at kibbutzim, as well as Hamas terrorists gunning down cars of civilians or people on foot who are trying to flee the massacres.”

    You think you can “teach” them murder is wrong?
     
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  2. Deadtigers

    Deadtigers Member+

    Jul 23, 2015
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    Well for some us who are not Pro-Israel, it seems we have not only denounce the 10/7 attacks but say there was no reason for it and whatever Israel does in return is ok.
     
  3. Deadtigers

    Deadtigers Member+

    Jul 23, 2015
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    Maybe you should read the comment I was responding to. It was in regards to teaching young Palestinians not to be terrorists.

    What you posted is nonsense. Call me when you have reached enough dead civilians. You think you can teach the IDF the right amount of dead civilians?
     
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  4. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
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    I agree you shouldn't have to.
     
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  5. Belgian guy

    Belgian guy Member+

    Club Brugge
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    Aug 19, 2002
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    Perhaps it's less a question of "bias" and more the fact that it's hard to put a positive spin on dead kids being pulled from underneath the rubble?

    So the answer to people reacting negatively to images of the realities of war is to make sure they no longer can access such content?
     
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  6. Naughtius Maximus

    Jul 10, 2001
    Shropshire
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    Chelsea FC
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    Bombing the Palestinians means you get air to breathe? Have you been drinking?
     
  7. Naughtius Maximus

    Jul 10, 2001
    Shropshire
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
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    England
    I agree that there's hatred of some people by certain groups but you also have to accept that if you add to it by acting like thugs and bullies, stealing land and murdering innocent people, you're simply making it worse.
     
  8. Naughtius Maximus

    Jul 10, 2001
    Shropshire
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
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    England
    Are you asking if the tunnels WERE used hamas as a command centre, (which Reuters or anyone else wouldn't necessarily know), or whether they reported that the IDF SAID they were. Two different things.
     
  9. Naughtius Maximus

    Jul 10, 2001
    Shropshire
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    Chelsea FC
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    England
    For me, this is the problem. On the one hand we're asked to believe that the IDF are careful not to put civilians in dangers whilst at the same time, we can actually SEE them both killing unarmed Palestinians in the west bank and/or supporting Israeli settlers killing unarmed civilians in the west bank.

    When that happens there's never any consequence for the IDF personnel involved.

    I mean, I agree, I'd like to think they're being very careful and, as you say, they didn't carpet bomb the Al-Shifa hospital, but they haven't got a particularly great track record as an organisation.

    Also, let's be honest, when we're getting to the point that the IDF are getting plaudits for NOT carpet bombing a hospital, we're not in a particularly great place, are we :(
     
  10. Belgian guy

    Belgian guy Member+

    Club Brugge
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    Belgium
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    This is honestly just incredibly sad.
     
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  11. Naughtius Maximus

    Jul 10, 2001
    Shropshire
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    Chelsea FC
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    Yes, I agree although, as tigers says, it seems the same is being asked of us when we have to preface every statements or comment with saying we are repulsed by hamas actions on 7th Oct.

    In a sense that's understandable, (albeit rather pointless and redundant), but also that attack happened for no reason and came out of nowhere, effectively that the previous 75 years played no part in it in much the same way that the pressure for the establishment of the state of Israel wasn't a result of hundreds of years of pogroms culminating with the holocaust.

    Personally I'm quite happy to accept that @yasik19, (and the vast majority of the rest of the people involved in this discussion on that 'side'), think that the actions of the israeli government have been idiotic and counterproductive over several years. I don't need him to KEEP saying it.

    Likewise, most of us accept that if the hamas leadership thought 7th Oct was an appropriate way to act and if they put stuff in children's books talking about killing Jews, (if that's happening... I have no way of knowing although it seems likely it's more complicated than that), they need removing.
     
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  12. Cascarino's Pizzeria

    Apr 29, 2001
    New Jersey, USA
    Comments aren't pro Israel enough





     
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  13. charlie15

    charlie15 Member+

    Mar 9, 2000
    Bethesda, Md
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    I am listening to a PSA podcast this am and finding out that Biden was opposed to the attack on the hospital. Bibi apparently went bragging to his Likud backbenchers that he is the only Israeli PM who could defy a POTUS and get away with it. (He is not lying either for once here).

    This is the type of scumbag we are dealing with. He will happily throw Biden, Democrats and by extension the US democratic (small d) institutions if that helps him stay in power. Uncharted territories.
     
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  14. tomásbernal

    tomásbernal Member+

    Sep 4, 2007
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    According to the article, the Israelis know how many civilians are likely to die in any attack they make. They also have been given the go-ahead to bomb family homes of even the most junior Hamas members (of which Israel claims number 30,000--so a lot of targets), regardless of how many civilians are likely to die. They have a list of "Power Targets"--high-rise buildings, universities, public institutions, etc--the destruction of which has the function to shock and terrorize the civilian population. The sources quoted in the article note that, while most of the power targets could have some Hamas use (such as part of one floor that's used as a meeting space), many of them have no military value and so their destruction is simply to strike fear into the populace (in the hopes, however absurd, that they'll turn against Hamas). This, of course, would be properly defined as terrorism, unequivocally.

    Here's one exerpt that stood out (though it's hard to pick one, given the jaw-dropping information throughout the article):

    According to the IDF Spokesperson, by Nov. 10, during the first 35 days of fighting, Israel attacked a total of 15,000 targets in Gaza. Based on multiple sources, this is a very high figure compared to the four previous major operations in the Strip. During Guardian of the Walls in 2021, Israel attacked 1,500 targets in 11 days. In Protective Edge in 2014, which lasted 51 days, Israel struck between 5,266 and 6,231 targets. During Pillar of Defense in 2012, about 1,500 targets were attacked over eight days. In Cast Lead” in 2008, Israel struck 3,400 targets in 22 days.

    Intelligence sources who served in the previous operations also told +972 and Local Call that, for 10 days in 2021 and three weeks in 2014, an attack rate of 100 to 200 targets per day led to a situation in which the Israeli Air Force had no targets of military value left. Why, then, after nearly two months, has the Israeli army not yet run out of targets in the current war?

    Israel has since 2019 been developing an AI-based system of target identification, which can generate over 100 new targets per day, exceeding even the number of attacks that the IDF can execute.

    Another exerpt:

    According to former Israeli intelligence officers, in many cases in which a private residence is bombed, the goal is the “assassination of Hamas or Jihad operatives,” and such targets are attacked when the operative enters the home. Intelligence researchers know if the operative’s family members or neighbors may also die in an attack, and they know how to calculate how many of them may die. Each of the sources said that these are private homes, where in the majority of cases, no military activity is carried out.

    And this, in a similar vein:

    In the majority of cases, the sources added, military activity is not conducted from these targeted homes. “I remember thinking that it was like if [Palestinian militants] would bomb all the private residences of our families when [Israeli soldiers] go back to sleep at home on the weekend,” one source, who was critical of this practice, recalled.

    There is so much more in that article. It's incredibly well-researched and in-depth (and a very lengthy read). And shows just how inconscionable what Israel is doing is.
     
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  15. tomásbernal

    tomásbernal Member+

    Sep 4, 2007
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    Perhaps the biggest problem with your continued attempts to compare Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan to the current situation in the ME is that Germany and Japan were expansionist aggressors from the getgo of WWII (and WWI as well, in Germany's case). It has to be remembered that the reason you see place names in Gaza like "Rafah Refugee camp" (among many other refugee camps in Gaza, the West Bank, Jordan, Lebanon...) is because all those people were made refugees when they were forced off their land and out of their homes, largely in 1948.
     
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  16. tomásbernal

    tomásbernal Member+

    Sep 4, 2007
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    Which has been precisely the Israeli MO for decades, in Gaza and the West Bank.
     
  17. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
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    i think we have to separate whataboutism from revealed preferences and attitudes.

    eg if in response to antisemitism from student protests I say “but musk”! That is whataboutism

    but on the other hand, if over weeks in this thread, you simply never have anything to say about weaponisation of antisemitism on the right, you reveal your preferences IMO
     
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  18. Naughtius Maximus

    Jul 10, 2001
    Shropshire
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    Chelsea FC
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    You're indicating what's important to you, yes.

    It's perfectly obvious that Netanyahu cares less about the Jewish people that remaining in power and what he thinks, (erroneously, I have to say), is 'military success'.
     
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  19. tomásbernal

    tomásbernal Member+

    Sep 4, 2007
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    You should read this article, which was posted by @deejay. It's quite shocking the extent to which the Israelis accept the civilian death toll as "collateral damage". They know very well who and how many are likely to die in each attack they make. Several hundred civilians for one Hamas leader in one case. And dozens in many attacks on family homes where one member may be a junior Hamas member (but not fighting from that location).
     
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  20. Belgian guy

    Belgian guy Member+

    Club Brugge
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    Aug 19, 2002
    Belgium
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    The TikTok thing to me is a complicated one.

    There are probably some very good reasons to ban it in the West. Or at least consider banning it.

    But doing it because too many young people are confronted with horrible imagery coming out of Gaza is... sub-optimal.
     
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  21. stanger

    stanger BigSoccer Supporter

    Nov 29, 2008
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    Israel is at war with Hamas. Hamas intentionally hides among the Palestinian civilian population so when the IDF attacks, articles like this show the IDF in a negative light internationally and people get upset with them and pressure forces the IDF to back off.

    Who is to blame for the civilian deaths? The IDF or Hamas that puts the civilians in harms way?

    Both, IMO. But we don’t see that opinion expressed very often. We see pictures of Palestinian children and women that were killed by Israeli military operations, creating a one sided narrative.
     
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  22. charlie15

    charlie15 Member+

    Mar 9, 2000
    Bethesda, Md
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    Can we / should we expect a bit more restraint from Israel and the IDF than what we are seeing right now? I would believe so. I do not even think it is a matter of a one side narrative anymore. What is happening right now in Gaza is unconscionable.
    Hamas terrorists attacks were unjustified, heinous and horrific. Hamas as an organization should neutralized and kicked out of Gaza. No point or rehashing that over and over at this stage.
    What we are seeing now though is a massive collective punishment and an attempt of ethnic cleansing that should be repulsive to anyone with some humanity left. Vitriolic comments and remarks from the high spheres of the Israeli government are not helping either.
     
  23. Naughtius Maximus

    Jul 10, 2001
    Shropshire
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
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    England
    There's a reason for that attitude...



    Maybe we need to remove the current Israeli leadership as they're clearly teaching hatred to their young people and should be defined as a terrorist organisation?
     
  24. tomásbernal

    tomásbernal Member+

    Sep 4, 2007
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    You should read the article. The evidence they present is damning, and overwhelming. It's not one or two vague comments by one or two people. The illustration of how Israel is going about things in this war--which includes plenty of comparisons to past campaigns and the changes that have occurred--is shocking.
     
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  25. Cascarino's Pizzeria

    Apr 29, 2001
    New Jersey, USA
    Don't agree with Hamas or their tactics. But what would you expect them to do going up against the strongest military power in the region with the full backing of the US? No planes, tanks or other modern equipment. Mostly rockets, mortars & small arms. They flew friggin mini planes over the fence.
     
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