Hamas Attacks, Israel Responds II

Here:

https://apnews.com/article/lebanon-...bollah-syria-ce6af3c2e6de0a0dddfae48634278288

"At least two health workers were among those killed Tuesday. Doctors, nurses, paramedics, charity workers, teachers and office administrators work for Hezbollah-linked organizations, and an unknown number had pagers."

 

2800 civilians injured?

 

Why do some of you write like you somehow have made some great arguments?

And ask of others to have standards you do not have yourselves?

So there are Hezbollah members that work in healthcare? Good to know. Until today that was considered a lie

Also you can see the future? AP posted like 20 minuted after you made your claim?

 

???

 

No, they didn't start in 1979 but they didn't start in 1948 either, did they? The wider Middle East's current wars and civil wars, in no particular order, are

* Lebanon: Israel central because Iran is fundamental
* Libya: 30k dead, Israeli involvement zero, Iranian involvement zero
* Yemen: 350k+ dead (80k children) - Israeli involvement zero, Iranian involvement central
* Iraq: 150k minimum, Israeli involvement negligible, Iranian involvement high
* Syria: 550K dead, marginal Israeli involvement, Iranian involvement fundamental
* Sudan: 20-30k dead, 7m+ refugees, zero Israeli involvement, low/marginal Iranian
​

To be the "actual problem" Israel would have to be at least central to 5 or all 6. Instead it has no involvement at all in 3, a limited or negligible role in 2 and is central to 1. Iran is fundamental to 3, highly involved in one and peripheral in another.

Please explain how removing Israel from the map - or adding Palestine - ends even one of those wars. It it won't, and you know that.

Isn't the common denominator in all these wars neither Israel nor Iran (which is or aspires be an aggravating factor in 5 of them) but Middle Easterners?

Maybe it's "Israel to avoid the actual problem" for you.

 

That is literally not what the text that I've copied and pasted said.

There are numerous such reports. I went with an AP article that was recently updated, and a very quick check of wayback indicates that it's been updated seven times today.

 

That seems like a disingenuous distinction in a country where military service is mandatory for virtually all adults.

 

It is disingenuous. But if people are arguing that anyone carrying a pager had to be fair game because they must have been Hezbollah (even if they weren't combatants), then that same argument applies with equal force to IDF reservists.

If it isn't clear, I think both arguments are wrong. The onus is on the people doing the killing to show that the targets were actually combatants.

 

TAR21 rifles?

 

Doctors, nurses, paramedics, charity workers, teachers and office administrators work for Hezbollah-linked organizations, and an unknown number had pagers."

At least 5354464 is my bet. There are at least hundreds of non Hezbollah issued pagers in those hospitals. So the injured numbers in healthcare should have been waaaay higher

So in your mind 1. normal pagers that were caught up in the mix or 2. were those Hezbollah issued?

If Israel's attack triggered normal pagers you would have a point. But if they were Hezbollah issued should I give a shit because?

Such tragedy ...a member of a terrorist organization died...

If those people carried pagers given to them by Hezbollah they are Hezbollah.

This shit is easy...

 

Yes, all israelis aged 18-40 are soldiers, like Hezbollah are all terrorists. Perfectly fine to kill them unarmed in their beds or sitting with their daughters far away from any battlefield.

 

I agree with that, though only if you assume the word “combatant” to mean anybody currently actively involved in Hezbollah/IDF activities. And if the people with these pagers were not, then why did they have them? What was the need for secrecy that they would be using such archaic technology?

 

You seem to think that the mere possibility that someone is affiliated with Hezbollah justifies killing them. Umar's reasoning (which I discuss in another post) is really talking about you.

 

Again, not really a fair comparison, Israelis in general have no choice as to whether or not they’re associated with the military; as far as I know Lebanese citizens DO have a choice as to whether or not to be involved in Hezbollah.

 

My guess? Logistics becomes a hell of a lot easier if everyone is standardized.

Also, I used "combatant" much more narrowly than that: an IDF medic, for example, would not be fair game.

 

That's the general consensus, which means everyone in the region is looking for someone to stop that.

America can but won't and is pulling back from the Middle East. Europe can't, won't and left 50 years ago. China can't, won't and wants trade. Russia can only cause trouble. That leaves Israel as the "designated someone" and be sure they've discussed it exhaustively with everyone in the Gulf and the Egyptians. The "Arab street" hates Israel and their governments working with it, but they're Sunni so they hate Iran (although much less) but also fear them. They don't fear Israel, so . . .

Putin is resentful, aggressive, cruel and under real pressure, which makes people stupid so it's possible but Khamanei won't want to bet on that and this isn't 2015, when Russia had lots of spare capacity.
The Kims developed their own nukes and ICBMs to protect their regime, not Khamanei's. They have nothing else to offer Iran bar 1960s artillery and Iran has more and better of its own. What could be in it for the Kims is "relief on sanctions D, F and H and we sit on our hands. Deal?"
As for China itself, their foreign policy is tut-tutting while making $$$. A still-sanctioned Iran, desperate to rebuild, selling oil and gas for peanuts is right up Xi's street.

 

I did not know that israelis aged 18-40 did not have the right to vote to change their laws around conscription. Someone should do something about that.

 

If you get a sweet pager from Hezbollah that means you are Hezbollah.

As for Umar ... couldn't give 2 sh**ts what he says. He justifies every thing HAMAS and Hezbollah does ...
so you know his me poor victim shtick means nothing.

Him and Robert are the most vile people here.

 

Wow.

 

You are not even worth your own time.

 

Amazing argument as always

 

The unintended consequences are what matter. Win and you win big. Lose and you may be done for good.

Khamanei is 84 and his priority securing his designated heir so he needs to be cautious, but his regime is teetering and losing the "forward defence" assets (Iraq, Yemen, Syria and Lebanon) , especially the Lebanese crown jewel may leave his heir with nothing inherit. Historically that's been a combustible mix at the best of times. This isn't the best of times. Going for broke may look attractive, especially if a potential heir muscles his way to the front.

Bibi is 74 and is already branded as the worst leader in Israel's 100-year history, if not in all of Jewish history. Being the son of a path-breaking historian, a relationship that had the term "psychologically enslaved" applied to it by more than one expert, that's going to burn him up. Then there's all his other "issues". The only possible way of changing that is to keep going and hope the enemy breaks. Another combustible mix down the ages

 

It is a slippery slope trying to justify one party to a conflict killing non-combatants away from the battlefield. Your opponents will quickly adopt the same arguments.

If blowing up Hezbollah non-fighters is justifiable, then the same argument certainly applies to members of the IDF. Hezbollah has a vast social outreach programme just like almost all populist militias do, and there’s no way to identify a militant or non militant from the pager they use. Blowing up every pager they issue hoping to kill militants is pretty much as targeted as killing every israeli adult aged 18-40 that you can find.