Hamas Attacks, Israel Responds II

I would never pretend to have anywhere near the depth of understanding that you have, of course, and I am sorry for your loss. I do have one thing that you don't, however, and that's a more objective perspective. That's not to say my opinions on this are right necessarily (they're opinions after all) but looking at this objectively, it's very hard to for me to see how Israeli interests are being served by all this hawkishness.

There are still a couple of million suffering people in Gaza, today. What is to become of them? The whole population in Gaza has been crippled by Israeli actions and I don't see how Israel is better off now, as a result, than say before 10/7...

...maybe you could tell me?

 

Fair point.

So what's the way out given Israeli culture, politics and history? (I fully admit to being a naif, as well as to Palestinian culture, politics and history as well.)

The most depressing part of Elie Weisel's Night was the number of times he quoted family members as saying, "It's OK. We're going to be alright. This is as bad as it gets." And of course, it only got worse. And his family upped and moved farther away, trying to escape the oncoming doom, losing a family member or two seeminly with each move. I think I lost count at 7.

Knave posted pretty persuasively a couple of weeks after 10/7 that the primary contributing factor to the scope of the Holocaust was that there was no homeland for European Jews to escape to. There was no where for them to go and they just had to sit there an take it. It sort of confirmed my reading of Night.

Palestinians need a homeland. A real honest to god homeland. Something better than the Gaza Strip.

In the absence of that, there's the constant drip, drip, drip of armed conflict with Palestinians. It's been that way for 80 years, right? Except that everyone is just better armed now. The drip, drip, drip is just going to get worse.

So what should Israel do?

 

No matter where Palestinians are driven to, they will always be a "Hamas command center" and Israeli bombs will fall on them. Whether it's, now, the West Bank, Egypt, Europe, or anywhere else. That's not a war, it's a genocide. And no matter how many leaders of said Israeli government state that, people will cover there ears and go "yada yada yada but have you heard of October 7" while more civilians die by the hundreds.

And if Israel hadn't assassinated all the journalists, maybe we'd be getting similar sympathetic reporting on families of Palestinians who no longer exist, much less have a family member or two dead. And maybe that might engender empathy and lead somewhere. But here we are.

We just sit back and watch a genocide that were supporting and funding and an ally fall into fascism with zero irony. All the while trying to stave off our own fall into fascism.

What a time to be alive.

 

Thats true, but frankly on a political level Hamas has won. Gaining popularity/legitimacy not just in Gaza, but even in West Bank and regionally. It has put Palestine on the forefront on the global forum. The longer the war goes on, that effect only amplifies.

I think this wouldnt be the case if this war was fought in a short manner. Maybe a month or two tops (when Israel enjoyed world sympathy) Damage the Hamas infrastructure badly, get the hostages out via a deal. Then get out. But this would have required NOT to set impossible goals, like destroying Hamas in its totality, which was always an impossibility given Hamas being an ideology and manifestation/symbol of armed resistance. Sensible top officials in the IDF are now beginning to admit as such, in contrast to the myopic extremist ideologues in the Bibi/Gvir/Smothrich camp.

Israel has always exelled in major short burst high intensity wars against conventional armies and won.
It has now walked into the Hamas trap and gotten itself stuck in a forever war against a guerilla force, that wins simply by surviving.
This war has done irreperable damage to Israel politically, economically, socially and I would even say to some extent militarily. It is becoming abundantly clear that Hamas will continue to exist (and win politically), which will put a dent on Israels doctrine of deterrence supremacy. While getting multiple tactical wins against Hamas on the battlefield, in the broader strategic sense over long term Israel is losing and losing bad.

A good analogy is the frog in the boiling water. The water gets gradually heated so the frog doesnt realise its getting boiled to death until its too late.
Thats unfortunately Israel. It has gotten itself into a downwards loop in a death spiral that I dont see it coming out of.

 

No more cross border attacks is good but are Israelis safer now as a result of their response to 10/7? Look what's happened since, more incoming rockets from Hezbollah, Iran launched missiles into Israel, tension and violence on the rise in the West Bank, Sinwar is now in command of Hamas (same guy who masterminded 10/7 apparently), etc., Gaza in ruins, a whole population living outdoors and starving with no running water, bathrooms, medical care...right on Israel's doorstep, as a direct result of Israeli actions. Do you think there's less antipathy, hate and desire for revenge among the 2 million plus who are living in Gaza now, under these utterly hopeless and miserable conditions, mourning their dead at the hands of IDF?

 

Since the Democrats haven't been able to solve the problem, we need to let Trump have a shot.

He'll call up his buddy El-Sisi in Egypt and do a real estate deal.
What we all have to realize is that the muslims have a lot of land! Have you ever seen a map. From Morocco to Khazakstan!

Isreal only wants a tiny piece of land. So we need to leave them alone. There were kicked out of Russia and Europe as we know.

Trump will create a new country for the Palestinians. Along the shore even! It will be completely brand new built. With sewer/water, electrical and solar panels from Tesla. I'm not sure who will do the utilities but for sure an American firm hiring local labor. Win-win-win.

So much winning is coming guys!

 

You mean the same Trump that was bribed to the tune of $10million for his campaign by Egyptian leaders? That's the person you want handling foreign policy?

You're such a weirdo.

 

I don't know about that, but what does that have to do with building a new country for the Palestinian people???

Trump knows how to build things so this is not only possible but the best choice for all.

Trump is a think-outside-the box kinda guy so I'm pretty sure this will happen.
Question- have you ever thought outside the box?

 

Mexico will donate to the global go-fund-me. Just think of the new country we can build if all the world chips in with money and labor?

Really nice beach-front properties.
Israel turn barren beach into nice property. So we can do it to the rest of the beach front on the Egypt side. Right across the boarder.
Egypt needs to help their brethren! This is messed up on Egypt's part. Jordan should be helping too tbh.

 

Just ignore him. He goes away with no attention

 

ohh boy...
that's just... so mean

please dont ignore me yasik, and stanger too!

I'm on Israel's side here. But that doesnt' mean we can't be friends!

I'm proposing an out-of-the box solution!

you don't have a solution. no one does!

 

Chaos disguised as dumbassery. I imagine he now holds the land speed record for most people adding him to their ignore list since he showed up a week ago.

 

no i'm just so excited that i've found a new community of friends... though everyone hates me so i guess we're "frienemies"?

i only found this forum like last Fri after being on this website for many years. i thought this was a soccer website!?

i had no idea there was a whole entire universe waiting to be discovered!

Its nice to meeet you TyffaneeSue... boy it was kinda hard to type out your name like that

Long story short - I came as independent, but after comment abuse hurt my feelings, i turned maga

 

luftmensch did you put me on ignore? how does that even work, you don't see this reply?

that's kinda cruel! ignoring someone is a sin of omission. but its still a sin!
because we all need human connection. do you ignore your maga relatives?

 

i'm late to the party and i apologize.

i had started new threads so i don't mess up the vibe in your all threads. but then they merged my threads with the old threads!
so i guess i'm stuck here with you all. so now we just need to try and make the best of it i guess.

one quick question to get me caught up - is there anyone in this thread who is pro-Israel?
I think maybe Yasik? I can't tell exactly though. I'm pro-Isreal.
Because they were kicked out of everywhere and they only want a wee bit of land that sounds fair to me.

 

you had no idea and here you are, like a ray of sunshine! and now @bigredfutbol owes us all a tasty beverage of our choice.

fyp

if there was a moderator contest, Tyf would get my vote for best ever.

thanks for injecting a little humor into the saddest of all threads.

 

I also heard Trump say that Oct 7 is Biden's fault for giving money back to Iran.
Israel was gonna make peace with Saudi, but Iran didn't like that so they funded Hamas to do the bad thing!

But Trump withheld Iran's money. Hopefully he'll take their money away when he's president. Because Iran thinks backwards like North Korea and wants a Nuke!

 

A sad sad thread... and a Quakes fan... double whammy!... let me know if you need emotional support!