Hamas Attacks, Israel Responds II

Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by argentine soccer fan, Mar 5, 2024.

  1. Bootsy Collins

    Bootsy Collins Player of the Year

    Oct 18, 2004
    Capitol Hill
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This is demonstrably false.
     
  2. Kazuma

    Kazuma Member+

    Chelsea
    Jul 30, 2007
    Detroit
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    I'm not denying the possibility of what you just said, but intention matters. And that's what a lot of people don't get.
     
  3. bigredfutbol

    bigredfutbol Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 5, 2000
    Woodbridge, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I said no such thing.
     
  4. bigredfutbol

    bigredfutbol Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 5, 2000
    Woodbridge, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #3779 bigredfutbol, May 22, 2024
    Last edited: May 22, 2024
    I was agreeing with you! That's the point--genocide is a crime of deliberate, premeditated intent. It's not about how severe the war crimes are but WHY they were committed & towards what end.

    For comparison--the USA killed around a million people in the Vietnam War. The Serbian regime of Slobodan Milosevic was complicit in the killing of fewer than 100,000 Bosnian Muslims in the Bosnian War. But because the USA was not seeking to destroy the Vietnamese people in whole or in part, we were not guilty of genocide, even though we killed over 10 times as many people as the Serbian nationalists--who were trying to destroy the Bosnian Muslims in part*--did.

    We were guilty of a whole bunch of war crimes, crimes against humanity, and many violations of international law. But not genocide.



    *The Serb plan was never to kill ALL Bosnian Muslims; some people will argue that "proves" it wasn't a "real" genocide, which ain't true.
     
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  5. Bootsy Collins

    Bootsy Collins Player of the Year

    Oct 18, 2004
    Capitol Hill
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You referred to the statements of Israeli governmental officials to that effect.
     
  6. yasik19

    yasik19 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Chelsea
    Ukraine
    Oct 21, 2004
    Daly City
    "Repeat a lie often enough and it becomes the truth."

    The prove is so clear on this thread.
     
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  7. Bootsy Collins

    Bootsy Collins Player of the Year

    Oct 18, 2004
    Capitol Hill
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yeah, I've felt that way about you for months now.
     
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  8. Kazuma

    Kazuma Member+

    Chelsea
    Jul 30, 2007
    Detroit
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    I'm speaking about events like the Holodomor, Armenia, Poland. Things where no compromise is involved. Bear in mind that was what I learned about genocide ages ago.

    I do know about Bosnia, as my ex-gf is from there and heard some of her stories, but not enough to comment on it with an informed opinion.
     
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  9. Kazuma

    Kazuma Member+

    Chelsea
    Jul 30, 2007
    Detroit
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Didn't mean to come across that way.
     
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  10. yasik19

    yasik19 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Chelsea
    Ukraine
    Oct 21, 2004
    Daly City
    I'll take that as a compliment. Sooner or later, you should also become enlightened and not brainwashed through despicable propaganda. I still have hope for many of you.
     
  11. Bootsy Collins

    Bootsy Collins Player of the Year

    Oct 18, 2004
    Capitol Hill
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yeah, that's what Dimka from Olgino says about me all the time.
     
  12. bigredfutbol

    bigredfutbol Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 5, 2000
    Woodbridge, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yes, and I pointed out that those cabinet ministers are not speaking about an actual policy.
     
  13. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    ??? Which part?
     
  14. waitforit

    waitforit Member+

    Dec 3, 2010
    Valcea
    Club:
    FC Steaua Bucuresti
    Nat'l Team:
    Romania
    I am sorry but that is more delusional than Kumar saying HAMAS does not govern Palestine.

    A conflict that at heart is a religious conflict will not be solved with atheism. And yes I know secular does not equal atheist but for the people involved it does. Everything decision in this so called secular state will be religious based. This "new" secular country would be on par with the Democratic People's Republic of Korea
     
  15. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I agree, it doesn’t make you a bad Democrat. But I don’t think you can convince me that any action that doesn’t help Biden is bad for the Palestinians because the alternative is Trump.

    We have seen this movie, in 2000. I rank Bush 2 as our 3rd worst president ever, and Trump is the worst, so I know someone sending themselves a mail bomb when I see it.
     
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  16. Bootsy Collins

    Bootsy Collins Player of the Year

    Oct 18, 2004
    Capitol Hill
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You have documentary evidence of that? Because I admit that normally, when people tell me who they are, I tend to believe them. So when officials of some government say e.g. "we will eradicate _____," I figure that means they intend to eradicate ______.
     
  17. bigredfutbol

    bigredfutbol Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 5, 2000
    Woodbridge, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    How so? There are several million Israelis & several million Palestinians living in the same place. The window for a viable Palestinian state seems to be closing.

    It's a sectarian conflict, not a religious one.

    And 'secular' does not mean 'atheist.'

    EDIT: Huh, you even ADMIT that.

    You sure about that? Both Israelis and Palestinians have large secular populations.

    You're just throwing ideas at the wall here.
     
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  18. bigredfutbol

    bigredfutbol Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 5, 2000
    Woodbridge, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    While I spend my time trying to prove a negative, how about you produce evidence that Yad Vashem and/or the Holocaust Museum consider the IDF operation in Gaza to be a genocide.
     
  19. bigredfutbol

    bigredfutbol Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 5, 2000
    Woodbridge, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Guy made a general "the whole world" comment--clearly out of moral disgust and outrage--and you went right to specifics about Biden.
     
  20. Bootsy Collins

    Bootsy Collins Player of the Year

    Oct 18, 2004
    Capitol Hill
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #3795 Bootsy Collins, May 22, 2024
    Last edited: May 22, 2024
    But what you are implicitly saying is that we can have no expectations whatsoever of our politicians -- we can't even expect them to not round up and exterminate all the brown people in the U.S. -- because the alternative is Trump.

    There has to be *some* ability to hold even the candidates we prefer to account, or we are already no longer a democracy.
     
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  21. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I wouldn’t be as definitive as you. The Thirty Years War was a devastating religious war, the first true world war, and it was the last major transnational Ps vs. Cs war* after the Treaty of Westphalia.

    Once Charlemagne’s grandfather beat the Muslims in a battle whose name escapes me, Muslims stayed on their side of the mountains.

    In neither case did the two sides become secular.

    An expert on Sunni vs. Shia might have other examples as well.

    *im not counting the Miami-Notre Dame rivalry in the Lou Holtz era :ROFLMAO:
     
  22. bigredfutbol

    bigredfutbol Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 5, 2000
    Woodbridge, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    What he's implicitly saying is that our long time military, diplomatic, strategic, economic, and political alliance with Israel can't be easily undone; and that in a global environment where fascists and other antisemites are weaponizing outrage about Gaza for their own ends, the US government needs to recognize that turning our back on Israel NOW would embolden them further, putting every Jew in the world at great risk.

    There are no good options right now. Sometimes the world doesn't present clear, binary, Manichean alternatives, but just different flavors of shit.
     
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  23. teammellieIRANfan

    Feb 28, 2009
    Club:
    Perspolis
    Nat'l Team:
    Iran
    All the recent developments just proves the obvious points made by various observers, and myself in this thread.

    This war is a gift to Hamas and the "axis of resistance". It is being fought on Hamas et al terms. Assymetrical warfare.
    All the while Israel is loosing militarily (if success is defined by whether or not strategic objectives are reached), economically and politically.
    If I were to say to you on October 7th right after the attacks, that 6 months later Israel would be prosecuted in ICJ, its leaders prosecuted in ICC, a state of Palestine would be recognized, that a global wide student movement in solidarity with Palestinians (that started in the US campuses no less!) would emerge, I think many of you would say I was batshit crazy. Granted, some of these events are symbolic to an extent, but thats not to say symbolism doesnt matter.

    Israeli military needs an enemy with a military it can see. A conventional army which abide by conventional means or rules. With a swift defeat.
    Not a Vietcong style guerilla army that is next to impossible to defeat, in a forever war with no end in sight.
    Contrary to what some may want to think, Hamas is winning the ideological and political narrative among the populace in Gaza, and increasingly so in the West Bank.
    Im actually baffled as to what some of you say about the supposed miniscule support Hamas has in Gaza, even after this war. What a load of baloney.

    This war has been strategic defeat for Israel on a colossal scale.
     
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  24. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Ok I guess but America is part of the world, plus other nations have supported Israel too.
     
  25. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I don’t think that’s what I’m saying, I’m just reiterating that everyone has only one vote, and to use that vote wisely. Meanwhile, the other 1460 days of a presidential term you should lobby relevant politicians, donate money to candidates you support, etc. I don’t like Biden’s policies on Israel either but I won’t consider not voting for him.
     

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