Hamas Attacks, Israel Responds II

Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by argentine soccer fan, Mar 5, 2024.

  1. bigredfutbol

    bigredfutbol Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 5, 2000
    Woodbridge, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    1) We shouldn't
    2) We're responsible for our own leadership, first & foremost.
     
  2. Umar

    Umar Member+

    Sep 13, 2005
    One step ahead
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Nat'l Team:
    Palestine
    Yes. This shouldn’t be a difficult concept.

    Hamas doesn’t govern Palestine. It hardly governs Gaza at the moment.

    But regardless of de facto control, it is possible to recognise a state without also recognising the controlling power for the time being within that state.

    The US government recognises Yemen but doesn’t recognise the Houthis.
     
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  3. Bootsy Collins

    Bootsy Collins Player of the Year

    Oct 18, 2004
    Capitol Hill
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    But we do.

    Agreed. But our leadership extends grace to awful xenophobic leaders of other nations. And I think it's really going to come back to bite them in the ass, as hundreds of thousands of Democrats stay home or vote third party.

    https://www.theguardian.com/comment...ote-for-joe-biden-any-more-and-i-am-not-alone
     
  4. bigredfutbol

    bigredfutbol Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 5, 2000
    Woodbridge, VA
    Club:
    DC United
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    United States
    #3754 bigredfutbol, May 22, 2024
    Last edited: May 22, 2024
    Then when those voters help get Trump elected, they can take comfort in knowing that Bibi having a free hand to ramp up war crimes in Gaza as well as the USA being a pariah nation with be on their conscience. Maybe they'll take time to reflect on the consequences of having a myopic, single-issue, context-free view of foreign policy.

    I'm not holding my breath.

    EDIT: I'm referring to run-of-the-mill voters, not Ahmed Moor. For what it's worth, my wife & I listened to a really good interview with him a few weeks ago. His argument against a two-state solution--he believes that Palestinians and Jews should live together in a singular secular state--is pretty convincing to me.
    I can understand his stance, but most progressive/young Americans who will sit out in November on this one issue don't have his moral seriousness or deep engagement with the issue.
     
  5. yasik19

    yasik19 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Chelsea
    Ukraine
    Oct 21, 2004
    Daly City
    Finest freedom fighters in all the land.

    1793297731231855060 is not a valid tweet id
     
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  6. Kazuma

    Kazuma Member+

    Chelsea
    Jul 30, 2007
    Detroit
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Do you care more about stuff that happens in a far off part of the world or things like abortion and the things Biden's achieved since?

    Or same question as above but with the general US populace.
     
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  7. bigredfutbol

    bigredfutbol Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 5, 2000
    Woodbridge, VA
    Club:
    DC United
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    United States
    I'm willing to bet Gaza will be a non-factor in November.
     
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  8. superdave

    superdave BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The last sentence in this tweet is awful. The whole reason Biden is in the position he’s in is because he has given Israel 99% of what they asked for. ******** that guy.
     
  9. Kazuma

    Kazuma Member+

    Chelsea
    Jul 30, 2007
    Detroit
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    If the Dem primary is anything to go by, it has been.
     
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  10. bigredfutbol

    bigredfutbol Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 5, 2000
    Woodbridge, VA
    Club:
    DC United
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    United States
    That's a bit of a leap on your part.
     
  11. Bootsy Collins

    Bootsy Collins Player of the Year

    Oct 18, 2004
    Capitol Hill
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It's really, really hard for me to criticize anyone for being a single-issue voter when that single issue is whether or not to lend direct material support to a genocide. I agree with the statement that that's the reddest of possible lines.

    Asking Joe Biden to be responsive to his electorate doesn't seem to me to be a very big request. It just seems like standard electoral politics to me.
     
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  12. Kazuma

    Kazuma Member+

    Chelsea
    Jul 30, 2007
    Detroit
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    I should add that I'm more worried about the hardcore elements alienating normal people.
     
  13. Bootsy Collins

    Bootsy Collins Player of the Year

    Oct 18, 2004
    Capitol Hill
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    #3763 Bootsy Collins, May 22, 2024
    Last edited: May 22, 2024
    I care about genocide. I care a lot about my tax dollars being used to blow up babies and aid workers and so on. And I care a huge freaking honking shit-ton about people saying "yes, but if you don't support your tax dollars being used to blow up babies and aid workers and so on, you'll be a bad Democrat." ******** that shit, hard. Obviously YMMV.
     
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  14. Bootsy Collins

    Bootsy Collins Player of the Year

    Oct 18, 2004
    Capitol Hill
    Club:
    DC United
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    United States
    Are you confident that Biden will win Michigan by more than a couple hundred thousand votes?
     
  15. Kazuma

    Kazuma Member+

    Chelsea
    Jul 30, 2007
    Detroit
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    It's not a genocide though. Far from it. I know that'll make a lot of people squeal on here like stuck pigs (Russia and the Holodomor is a genocide for instance), plenty of concern about laws of war, but again, it's not genocide.

    Thing is, most people don't care, are more likely to wish that there's peace. And are probably more concerned with abortion than again a far off part of the world.
     
  16. Kazuma

    Kazuma Member+

    Chelsea
    Jul 30, 2007
    Detroit
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Did you not see what the primary results for Michigan were?

    And the Arab-American demographic is big, but not big enough to have an impact. Last Republican who won that vote lost Michigan pre-9/11.
     
  17. bigredfutbol

    bigredfutbol Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 5, 2000
    Woodbridge, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Almost as confident as you are that Israel's actions in Gaza constitute a genocide.

    Not "an ill-advised" or "unjust" military operation; not a disturbing lack of concern for civilian casualties; not a troubling amount of war crimes or crimes against humanity; not a disturbing tendency of some members of Netanyahu's cabinet to characterize IDF strategy as genocidal. But an actual genocide, according to the 1948 UN Convention on Genocide.
     
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  18. Bootsy Collins

    Bootsy Collins Player of the Year

    Oct 18, 2004
    Capitol Hill
    Club:
    DC United
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    Well, by the definitions used by everyone from the OED to the UN to Yad Vashem to the US Holocaust Museum, it's a genocide. Hmm. Them? Random guy on the internet? Them? Random guy on the internet? I'm gonna go with them.
     
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  19. Bootsy Collins

    Bootsy Collins Player of the Year

    Oct 18, 2004
    Capitol Hill
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yep, more confident than I am that there's no truth to Pizzagate.

    Yes. In fact, the wording of same is one of the reasons I'm so confident.
     
  20. Bootsy Collins

    Bootsy Collins Player of the Year

    Oct 18, 2004
    Capitol Hill
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I did. Did you know that Quisp was far more popular than Quake? Or that my dining room table is brown?
     
  21. bigredfutbol

    bigredfutbol Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 5, 2000
    Woodbridge, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    A lot of people seem to think that genocide is a matter of scale; that it's the plural of "War crime" or something.

    I've no doubt the IDF have committed some war crimes--going into a heavily populated civilian area with no real plan for how to accomplish their stated aim almost made that inevitable. But, loathsome rhetoric of the Ben Gvir types, there's no indication that the Israeli government is carrying out a deliberate, calculated campaign of genocide. Just a very poorly executed war against a guerilla resistance movement.
     
  22. Kazuma

    Kazuma Member+

    Chelsea
    Jul 30, 2007
    Detroit
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Genocide doesn't involve hostage trades, ceasefires, and negotiations. Intention matters.
     
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  23. bigredfutbol

    bigredfutbol Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 5, 2000
    Woodbridge, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    So you have documentary evidence that the Israeli government is carrying out this operation with the express intent of destroying the the population? Fascinating.
     
  24. bigredfutbol

    bigredfutbol Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 5, 2000
    Woodbridge, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Woah--not true at all. All those things happened in Bosnia in the 1990s.
     
  25. Bootsy Collins

    Bootsy Collins Player of the Year

    Oct 18, 2004
    Capitol Hill
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yes, and so do you, since you mentioned it previously.
     

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