Growing concerns

Discussion in 'Vancouver Whitecaps' started by RicoAzzurro, Apr 25, 2011.

  1. bdon

    bdon New Member

    Aug 16, 2005
    Vancouver, Canada
    Club:
    FC Porto
    Nat'l Team:
    Portugal
    From being able to watch chumiento play the wing on many occassions, he doesnt have the wheels nor the work ethic (he constantly quits on the play when his move doesnt work or he loses the ball) to play a wide winger in a 4-4-2. He needs to be put in a play making position like dunfields position and just have the to two young kids (khalfan and teibert) run all day creating space for the play makers. The most frustrating part im starting to find about this team is obviously the midfield disconnect, greg janiki (the fact that he starts makes me want to sell my season tickets) and the predictability of the attack, its constantly long ball to hassili, he settles, plays it wide to the wingers then everyone runs in hoping for a lucky cross, this team needs posession, quick passes and switching runs from the midfield, but as touched on before, it seems it might not be talented enough.
     
  2. Nu2soccer

    Nu2soccer New Member

    Dec 5, 2010
    Club:
    Vancouver Whitecaps
    I totally agree with Johnny. I am watching a lot of soccer and the feeling I now get from the coaching staff is that they are looking at this season as a loss from the start. It doesn't matter to them if they have a decent record, make playoffs, win games or not. I guess it started with them acquiring players in the expansion draft and trading them all away. They are sticking with past loyalty players and giving them experience at the expense of winning games.
     
  3. sportie1

    sportie1 Member

    Sep 4, 2008
    simply put-- not good enough for the Caps to stay with some of the present players who lack skill, experience or both; expansion team not withstanding, the team is close to being very competitive and with 2-3 better players would be nicking goals to bring ties rather than 1 goal loses, and wins from ties

    they have the financial resources and the owners and FO staff need to be more ambitious this first year

    you dont have to sacrifice the present while planning for the future; there are 3-4 players who will never be good enough to be an impact player and will usually be on the bench or reserve team

    its time to tweak the team and spend some cash-- its a world market of players

    the second change that needs to happen is that, as i have stated before, the players have been/still are being overtrained, especially on turf, resulting in a continuing problem with groin and hamstring injuries-- now hassli has a hamstring problem and will probably miss several games

    thirdly, TT needs to reevaluate his game tactics and starting lineup-- he is being outcoached and not willing to change his system to meet the opponents strengths and weaknesses; a front line of hassli and camilio will not work and only makes hassli appear disinterested or weak-- hassli needs a better playing partner

    TT blames it all on a tough schedule-- partly true-- but he needs to look for further reasons-- excuses are for losers and the Caps will continue to loose unless changes are made
     
  4. VegasNYC

    VegasNYC Member

    Apr 22, 2011
    Australia
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    Italy
    Being an outsider Whitecaps fan, I understand fans in Vancouver must be anxious, but is it to be expected that every thing fall into place in the first season?

    Im sure mistakes will be made and the FO hopefully learn from that. Im sure with the resources the Whitecaps have they will improve but for me personally, as someone who loves your city, Im just happy to see Vancouver in MLS for the first time!!

    I look forward to my Caps gear coming in the mail and wearing it proudly and getting back to Vancouver next year. Go Caps!! (Best of luck to the Canucks as well).
     
  5. RicoAzzurro

    RicoAzzurro Member

    Mar 20, 2011
    Vancouver, BC
    Club:
    Vancouver Whitecaps
    Nat'l Team:
    Italy
    @VegasNYC, great to hear you are supporting the Caps all the way from Australia!!!:D
     
  6. Krammerhead

    Krammerhead Guest

    It doesn't have to fall in place in the first (MLS) season. It does, however, need not be so inept.
     
  7. sportie1

    sportie1 Member

    Sep 4, 2008
    RIGHT... and the ineptness will continue to grow unless changes are made that upgrade the skill and experience
     
  8. Nu2soccer

    Nu2soccer New Member

    Dec 5, 2010
    Club:
    Vancouver Whitecaps
    It's so sad that it has become apparent the this MLS has been written off as a loss so early. I want to continue to support the team but it makes it so hard when the coach and management don't seem to care. They care more about the outcome of the Nutrilite Canadian Championship than the MLS season. SMH...
     
  9. Krammerhead

    Krammerhead Guest

    Well there are many benefits to winning the Canadian Championship. I'm just not sure that the way things are going that we will win it, even by resting our starters. It's not like Toronto wasn't playing last night so that we needed extra days to rest.
     
  10. dewhitecapfan

    dewhitecapfan Member

    Jul 28, 2008
    That line up was shocking to say the least... Long Tan for 90? I also don't agree with sitting Rochat - he doesn't seem like the kind of player that wouldn't want to play the full 90 every game. Both San Jose and New England seemed like very winnable games, we just didn't field the team and line up to do it. Could be a long season...
     
  11. sportie1

    sportie1 Member

    Sep 4, 2008
    its only stubbornness and excuses that cause the Caps to look to be far below its rival expansion team in portland-- TT and the Staff have been/are being outcoached by JS and the Staff in portland- the Caps have overevaluated their players and seem content on continuing their misguided belief that the players they have are capable/will be capable of being a very competitive team in MLS when given more time, some rest and less injuries

    i beg to differ!

    some younger players, even with more game experience, will not be much better than what they already are (knight, tan, leathers to name 3); camilio is a 30-40 minute sub player, chumiento is a 60 minute player, nolly is average, hassli is sulking when playing with camilio (and who would not be given that camilio is a 1 team player - HIMSELF--, the defense is quite solid when the first team players are playing, but the subs are not capable of picking up the slack, the midfield lacks the ball skills to be more creative and hold possession of the ball, and set pieces are lacking in quality and awareness

    unless changes are made, this will indeed be a lost year soon and the 'lightning in the bottle' that the Caps could have had will be lost in frustration, unbelief and negativity
     
  12. Nu2soccer

    Nu2soccer New Member

    Dec 5, 2010
    Club:
    Vancouver Whitecaps
    I am so confused with TT's line-up choices. Does he not realize he is in the MLS now? He has seasoned vets and he sits them to play D2 bench players. This last game against New England was ridiculous. He wanted to lose it. I don't think any player, namely Rochat, who would say they are too tired to play in any game and could use the rest. For TT to say this in an interview really insults my intelligence. And I want to see Joe Cannon play in goal. What's the deal, why is Joe continuing to sit in favor of a less experienced goal keeper? He is stubbornly thinking his team from last year will rise to the occasion. Sometimes there's a reason players go to a less competitive league to get playing time. Wake up Teitur and smell the coffee! Get off your high horse and try to win some games.
     
  13. sportie1

    sportie1 Member

    Sep 4, 2008
    what really is beginning to p*#s me off is that our rival expansion team is doing it right in the first year and we, the Caps and its supporters, are being left behind- portland supporters have lots to cheer about and be proud of

    it doesn't take any football genius to conclude that what we have right now is not good enough-- the Caps lack experience and quality at mid-field and forward--and as the games head into the summer, we will be left further behind :confused:

    the FO execs are saying that they must find the right type of player to bring to the team-- my god, its a world game with a world loaded with talent-- and its absurd to make such a statement to an soccer-intelligent community of supporters

    when there is a will, there is a way-- we expect better! we wont sit quietly, pay our $$$ and be another TFC!
     
  14. TheCopperSheik

    May 18, 2011
    Club:
    Vancouver Whitecaps
    I am surprised at the anger you and a lot of supporters are giving. This is an EXPANSION team in it's 1st season. The team can not build massive depth in year 1 with the MLS rules around player movement and salary caps. They had to build a lot of their roster from USL guys and other teams rejects in the expansion draft. Also, the team was ripped by injuries to the point that no team would be winning. In that situation, spending your wad on 2 more DP's would not have made a huge difference in the results.

    The fact that each game the Caps have been competitive; and in many cases (especially at home) the better team; to me is a testament that Teitur is doing a fine job.

    Good teams build for the long term; and have VERY LOW turnover in management staff. Firing a coach after a 1/3 of a season is absolutely destructive. If you do it with TT, then it will happen again. Then you will wake up after 4 seasons having had 5 different coaches and playing styles and end up nowhere.

    Yes, Portland is doing better. But they took a win now approach. I am very confident in saying that after 5 seasons the Caps will have had far more success than Portland.
     
  15. Krammerhead

    Krammerhead Guest

    Iron has switched to copper?
     
  16. sportie1

    sportie1 Member

    Sep 4, 2008
    both are lead-headed behind a dumba** mask

    i am not saying that TT should be fired... but he does need to change some of his approaches to the team such as training, game selection and formations

    i have a feeling that TT has a blind spot-- he is reluctant to make changes, believing that given enough time, some luck and some rest, the Caps will start winning... winless in 10 games tell me otherwise and he needs to take some advice

    if SFC and portland can be competitive from season 1, so can the Caps-- settling for less rips off the fans and frustrates the quality players on the squad
     
  17. Nu2soccer

    Nu2soccer New Member

    Dec 5, 2010
    Club:
    Vancouver Whitecaps
    What is wrong with a "win now approach"? If TT doesn't change his tactics, he will not improve in 5 years, 10 years, ever. His subs are irrational and predictable, his decisions are based on loyalty to his D2 team that he should shed now that he's in the big league. And it appears the management/owners/partners share his sentiments. Hopefully, fan uproar and disappointment will let them see the light. I was so excited and enthusiastic when the first game was played and with each game those feelings are ebbing away. C'mon Whitecaps!!!
     
  18. TheCopperSheik

    May 18, 2011
    Club:
    Vancouver Whitecaps
    A "win now" approach for an expansion side usually means they do good for a year or two but never get anywhere. A "build to the future" approach, if done right, can lead to a long term championship contender.

    There are many examples and proof of this if you look over the NHL expansion from the 90s and even Pittsburgh and Toronto of the last few years.

    Example: Florida tried to "win now" as an expansion team. They made it to a cup final, but had not much in the tank and have been poor for the most part since. Ottawa was dreadful and then became a long term 100 point team after building it up (now they suck again, but they were near the top for a long time).

    Pittsburgh was dreadful for a few seasons and now, with healthy players, is a Stanley cup contender for the next few years; and having already been to two finals with young superstars.

    Toronto tried the "win now" approach under Burke. You see the results; they have nothing that is building towards being a power team and atbest may be a playoff contender but NOT a championship contender.

    Edmonton stinks; but guess what. They are going to be a hell of a team in a couple more years with all that young talent.

    I can give you many more examples but these are some off the top of my head.

    History of expansion in the #1 league in our country shows that the short term thinking of the "win now" approach leads to long term mediocrity or even failure. While teams that are patient for 2 or 3 years end up competing for championships.

    I for one, would rather win 3 mls cups in the next 10 years than be barely qualifying for the playoffs each year because we took a short term "win in the first year" approach. I much prefer the Pittsburgh model over the Burke Toronto model.
     
  19. Nu2soccer

    Nu2soccer New Member

    Dec 5, 2010
    Club:
    Vancouver Whitecaps
    TheCopperSheik: If I follow your thinking...it really doesn't matter if they win now or later to you. You will wait for 10 years to win MLS cups regardless. I for one, want to win from the beginning and keep winning!
     
  20. TheCopperSheik

    May 18, 2011
    Club:
    Vancouver Whitecaps
    lol

    I didnt say I would wait 10 years for a cup. I do accept a losing team for the first 2 seasons as they build a long term contender. If we got into year 3 and were not a cup contender then I certainly would be as pissed as you all are now and call for the heads of management.

    I am saying that over a 10 year time frame, a team that builds properly (and probably losing a lot in year 1 and 2) will have far more success than a team that tries so hard in year 1. The reason I pick a 10 year time frame is that is a good idea of a long term winning cycle for teams that have build properly and responsibly. They lose in the first couple of years and then are strong contenders (and often winners) for many years after that.

    If you, as a supporter, wish for a playoff spot in year one as being more important than building a long term winner, that is great. We all have our differences on what excites us as fan. Me, I like a team that is a top contender for a decade and that only happens when you build it slowly through a couple of losing seasons to get there. We have plenty of evidence in the NHL to back up that.

    I like the Pittsburgh model of losing for 3 seasons and loading up; and now are already 2 time finalists, and a Cup win, and if their two mega stars are healthy, will be serious contenders for another 5 - 8 years. The Burke model in Toronto of trying to win right away keeps you in mediocrity for an extended period of time.

    Why am i using the NHL to back up my theories? Well, it is a salary cap/draft/trade based league which the MLS is as well. This is not a European football style of business model and so examples there do not hold as well.

    I know what you say; you want to win in year 1 and keep winning. I do not consider 4th or 5th place each year winning. I consider CUPS to be winning. And no team in recent history (in north american salary capped sports), has done that without a couple of years of losing as they build a proper team. The evidence shows that what you want is nearly impossible to achieve.

    And one more very strong point. In the North American system with salary caps and drafts; getting young talent is VERY important. You do that with good drafting. Having a couple of losing seasons will get you a high draft pick and a better long term player. We can not apply the model they use in Europe where you can win quicker and keep winning by signing and purchasing players.


    Cheers.
     
  21. Krammerhead

    Krammerhead Guest

    The MLS is not the NHL. Comparing an expansion NHL team (playing in the best league in the world) that is forced to play with the castoffs of other teams to an MLS side that has a world of players to choose from is ridiculous.
     
  22. TheCopperSheik

    May 18, 2011
    Club:
    Vancouver Whitecaps
    There is a salary cap, a draft, and various player rules and restrictions. They do not have a world of players open to them like a European team. Their business model is closer to an NHL style than a European football model.

    And please, whether you like a person's opinions or not, they are not ridiculous. This is just talk and opinion sharing.
     
  23. Krammerhead

    Krammerhead Guest

    Yes, there is an MLS draft, and you will be rewarded with top picks for being bad. However unlike the NHL you will not be getting a pick of the top best young players in the world. In the NHL (and some other sports leagues) it benefits you to have a few bad years as you'll be rewarded with the best young players in the world. In the MLS you will be rewarded with getting a top US college player or two that will get you nowhere. The MLS only has a draft to try and emulate the other big leagues in North America. It is garbage.

    The benefits of being bad are nowhere near as great as in the NHL. Oh, and yes, using the Pittsburgh Penguins as an example of how the the Whitecaps should do things is ridiculous.
     
  24. TheCopperSheik

    May 18, 2011
    Club:
    Vancouver Whitecaps
    Well we will have to disagree. I think it is perfectly acceptable for an EXPANSION team to be a losing squad in year 1 as they build towards being a winning team over the long term.
     
  25. sportie1

    sportie1 Member

    Sep 4, 2008
    so you are saying that seattle, who made the MLS playoffs in year 1 and has won 2 Open Cups in its 3 year existence, has done it wrong!!?? i think just the opposite-- they got it right and have produced a very competitive team from the get-go... and portland is doing the same thing

    whats wrong with giving your fans the hope that, in each game, you have the potential to win and to make every attempt to make the playoffs

    i just dont think the Caps have to wait 3 years to be a very competitive team-- i think that montreal will take the same page from seattle and portland and be a very competitive team from season 1
     

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