Greatest peak seasons ever?

Discussion in 'Players & Legends' started by Gregoire, Nov 13, 2013.

?

Greatest players peak (one season)?

  1. Pele

    11 vote(s)
    35.5%
  2. Maradona

    3 vote(s)
    9.7%
  3. Messi

    13 vote(s)
    41.9%
  4. Garrincha

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  5. Ronaldo9

    2 vote(s)
    6.5%
  6. Ronaldinho

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  7. Zico

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  8. Cruyff

    2 vote(s)
    6.5%
  9. other

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. Edhardy

    Edhardy Member+

    Sep 4, 2013
    Nairobi, Kenya
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    I'm not the one saying conclusively that Maradona wouldn't do well in any scenario besides those that he excelled in. You're the one saying that wrt Messi/Cristiano. A great player will be great in any era and any league really.
    The league vs league argument imo ended a while back, it's too homogenous now and I think Messi proves more playing in Valverde's Barca than going to Pep's Bayern and Pep's Man City. On the surface he'd have played in three different teams and leagues but really he'd have made fewer adjustments than he did from Rijkaard to Valverde through Pep and Enrique.
     
  2. poetgooner

    poetgooner Member+

    Arsenal
    Nov 20, 2014
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    I'm not so sure that is the case. For all the differences, there are certain "Barcelona DNA" that remains regardless of the changes in the manager. Also, he plays with the same set of players, subject to slight changes each year, so there is minimal need for new chemistry to be established.
     
  3. Edhardy

    Edhardy Member+

    Sep 4, 2013
    Nairobi, Kenya
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    I'd say this DNA is likelier to be found if he played in a Pep team than any Barca team he has played for post-Vilanova (RIP).
    If any club signed Messi or CR7 they would be doing everything to ensure their players play to the strengths of these players (Juve dropping Dybala last season because Mandzukic was more likely to bring the best of CR7 f.e.). IMO it really proves little about a player's ability. Maybe their mental capacity to adapt to new surroundings
     
  4. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member+

    Jun 1, 2018
    Messi plays in a league where there are barely two or three teams on the dispute. Look at the last 10-20 years of the Premier League and how many ups and downs the teams have. Cristiano Ronaldo his average goals and his legacy would have been affected if he had stayed at Manchester United, for example.

    Other myth is: Ronaldo has become a faster and more direct player in La Liga, that's an impression. Cristiano had to use a lot more tricks, skills, stepovers, footwork, ball control, speed and energy to dribble past defenders in England than in Spain. In Spain he saw that he didn't always need to use his repertoire of tricks and that all he had to do was run over his opponents, the easy it was compared.

    In England also much more contact is allowed than in Spain, which would have drained his legs much earlier. In my opinion Cristiano arrived in Spain in the middle of his peak and it was the best choice.
     
  5. Edhardy

    Edhardy Member+

    Sep 4, 2013
    Nairobi, Kenya
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    If only he had passed the memo to Hazard and Bale. Or the rest of Europe as La Liga dominated for close to a decade.
     
  6. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Or guys as Falcao, Soldado and many others.
     
  7. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Ok
    So now You're just being typically/playfully disingenuous
    Falcao had a career defining injury at Monaco that preceded his move to English football

    Falcao in his prime obliterated English champions league holders Chelsea in 2013
    So please stop

    Players like soladao are more like exceptions to the rule
    It's not like he set the world alight in Spain either

    What alot of people to realise when certain players fail to shine in other leagues is external factors
    Different culture,weather,family struggling to settle etc
    They are human beings at the end of the day

    It is way too simplistic to suggest its soley because one football style is superior to another
    Why did andriy shevchenco fail in the premiership 2 years after winning the ballon for
    Was his serie A record questionable because of this?
     
  8. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid

    Every so often on youtube there appears a hidden gem

    20 min comp on ronaldinho in his prime
    2005/06

    Enjoy
     
    Edhardy repped this.
  9. Edhardy

    Edhardy Member+

    Sep 4, 2013
    Nairobi, Kenya
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    @carlito86
    Thanks for that, Ronaldinho was special.
     
  10. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #85 carlito86, Apr 17, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2020




    17 MOTM awards in 33 starts(league and CL)is the most unreal stat from this campaign
    You can argue all day long but this was IMO all things considered (his CL ratings also)the best debut campaign ive seen

    La liga was either the best or fighting neck and neck with the PL in 2010( and overtook it shortly thereafter)
    This is not bundesliga,or ligue 1 or eredivisie

    This was literally against the best set of club opponents he could've faced anywhere in world football

    Ive been advocating on behalf of a few legendary campaigns on this thread
    Perhaps @tropiero you could weigh in

    Have you seen van basten/ronaldinho/romario demonstrate a level of sustained and relentless all round brilliance as CR did over this campaign
    He was a goal a game player
    One of the top dribblers in la liga
    One of the best FK takers in the world
    2.7 KP per 90 was one of the highest in la liga too
    He was winning games on his own with almost unparalleled consistency

    He covered the most ground by any player in the entire league(will provide source later)
    All the while being its most fouled player


    Its important to ask
    Because when you are asking the question is CRs peak better than player x(whoever)

    What is the peak of a player who was a top 2 player in world football for 10 years
     
  11. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #86 carlito86, Jun 7, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2020
    4 pages and 0 mentions

    2011/12
    60 Goals+15 assists as a LW

    8 ESM team of the month rankings in a single season
    https://www.erubik.xyz/esm/player.php?id=Cristiano_Ronaldo

    The highest in history after Messi 11/12(who received a maximum of 9/9)

    7.5 DBS calcio rating
    No one in la liga history received this grade outside of Messi
    And especially not one who played all 38 league matches(a machine)

    Was a ridiculous athlete,very good 1 vs 1 dribbler ,Excellent crosser, indomitable in the air,still tracked back to defend


    Scored in a all time record 27 la liga matches(out of 38)
    Scored against all 19 la liga opponents in a single season


    Unparalleled decisiveness
    Scored winner in the camp nou vs runner up Barcelona to clinch la liga
    Scored the winner in a 3-2 defeat of 3rd place Valencia

    Scored Hattricks vs
    4th place Malaga
    5th place atletico Madrid
    6th place levante


    Scored 10 CL goals in 9 appearances

    Made Euro team of the tournament

    His performance vs Netherlands was graded the highest in the competition


    Ronaldo was 2 penalty kicks (vs bayern and Spain)
    from having arguably the greatest season in history

    One penalty he missed and one He never got to take

    All the ingredients were there
    From decisiveness in big teams
    Relentless consistency throughout a season
    Historic end product

    Only thing is he clinched 1 major trophy out of 3 available
    Euro+CL>la liga
    Which detracts away from the historical significance of his campaign


    However No way on earth can this campaign be totally ignored in a discussion as this
     
  12. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
  13. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #88 carlito86, Jun 7, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2020

    I must've missed it unintentionally because i only checked forwards/midfielders

    You know ones like
    Ronaldo nazario
    Luis Suarez
    Ronaldinho
    Rivaldo
    Neymar
    Robben
    Hazard
    Ibrahimovic
    Van persie
    Zidane
    Xavi
    Iniesta

    Those kinds of players

    I dont know any elite centre backs VVD 18/19 was competing against for ESM spots

    Umtiti
    Otamendi
    33 year old thiago silva
    33 year old cheillini
    Ramos 17/18
    Boateng 17/18
    Vincent kompany

    These are historic names or players coming off historic seasons?
    Maybe you have a spin


    You know Ronaldos 11/12 challengers for ESM spots?
     
  14. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #89 carlito86, Jun 7, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2020

    Left foot cross assist from 40-50 yards


    Great 1 vs 1 wingplay followed by an excellent left foot cross(and the finish by benzema as the title suggests was 88 van basten esque)




    Great cross assist to earn a point in a 1-1 draw vs 4th place Malaga


    1:01


    Again this is just the tip of the iceberg
    https://www.whoscored.com/Articles/...how/Euro-2012-Focus-Player-Stats-Leaderboards
    https://www.firstpost.com/fwire/pirlo-impossible-to-better-than-ronaldo-messi-358218.html
    https://amp.sportsmole.co.uk/footba...efano-tips-ronaldo-for-ballon-dor_120513.html
    A level of individual dominance was reached across all levels by Messi/Ronaldo that only Pele in some peak years can challenge/surpass

    It is a complete joke to compare Maradona 78-82 (Goals in the Argentine division)where Johnny nobodies like Sergio Fortunato or Andreucci top scored

    Prime andreucci failed in the Greek division
    Prime Sergio fortunato scored 2 goals in 12 serie A games for peruvia
    These guys scored as much or more than Maradona in certain seasons between 77-81




    Pirlo shares the honour of best individual match performance with Cristiano Ronaldo, the former getting a mark of 8.80 for his exhibition of passing against England, the latter for his demolition job on Holland.
    https://www.theguardian.com/football/2012/jul/02/euro-2012-andres-iniesta-guardian-readers

    With everything on the line on June 17, 2012, 19:45 CEST, and with Ronaldo at the peak of his physical and technical powers, Portugal’s favored son finally broke free from his lethargic spell and laid waste to the Dutchmen.
    1_9-3LUC9KNbfzO3J69psYhg.png

    Starting on the left in a simple, but effective, counter-attacking scheme, Ronaldo began his movements on the touchline before cutting inside to attack goal in his vintage inside forward role.
    1_4lkZVUOriXTDvhpG5Stc8A.png

    Statistically, Ronaldo was on another playing field compared to everyone else on the pitch. He managed 2 goals, 12 shots (only 2 less than that of the entire Dutch team), 12 touches inside the box, 3 chances created, and 1 through ball — and a successful dribble for good measure — off of only 42 touches

    Put simply, Ronaldo was untouchable — a phantom that eluded the Netherland’s desperate clutches.
    https://medium.com/@supersain5/cris...ro-2012-portugal-2-1-netherlands-d3cdf64061e5






    Gabrielle marcotti 2012
    "So how to explain the Messi-Ronaldo phenomenon?

    The best answer may be the least satisfying. These are simply two brilliant players, both of whom are likely among the greatest ever. Their numbers and their performances are so out of kilter with what the game is used to that they are the soccer equivalent of Wilt Chamberlain and Wayne Gretzky—players whose domination of the sport is so thorough that it's difficult to digest
    https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052702304724404577289380688703556


    All time peaks reached in both the league and European championships
    Combined with 10 CL goals
    Is something that has rarely been achieved in entire careers let alone a single campaign
     
  15. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member+

    Jun 1, 2018
    He was still a very good athlete, but his athleticism declined if compared to 10/11
    Very good dribbler = that season he wasn't, he had something like 2 dribbles completed out of 5 attempts.
    Excellent crosser = OK (but hard to compare him with other excellent crossers, I don't have that info)
    Tracked back to defend = rare. In the Euro with Portugal even less. He was waitiing for the counter attack all the time basically.

    Ronaldo 07/08, 09/10 was better than 11/12 imo (and 10/11 as well). He was a better athlete (peak athleticism), better dribbler (sucess rate + more solo goals), he was more involved and was more a one-man weapon before. In 11/12 he took his time, was more a system player and Real Madrid was much better than the last seasons before (Mourinho peaked this season and Real Madrid with or without Ronaldo was destroying teams for fun).
     
  16. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #91 carlito86, Jun 7, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2020
    Legends Tropiero are made In big matches and not opta spreadsheets or heat maps

    10/11 Ronaldo had marginally more touches,marginally more dribbles
    Was more agile etc.......
    That's nice

    How many open play goals vs Barcelona?
    3rd place Valencia?


    Just Check his DBS calcio ratings
    One was a machine from matchday 1 to matchday 38
    The other scored in bunches


    Was he notably more athletically imposing in 10/11 than 11/12?
    Youre Devlving now completely into subjective territory

    Do you have data for distance covered per match
    Top speed




    :ROFLMAO:
    You know He literally played all 38 league matches?

    Which teams did real Madrid in la liga 11/12 destroy without Ronaldo?


    Ronaldo missed one match all season against Ponferradina in the copa del Rey

    Real Madrid destroyed them 5-1

    The mighty Ponferradina 11/12 finished 4th place in the third division of Spanish football
    https://es.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tercera_División_de_España_2011-12

    this is evidence of Madrid being dominant without him?






    And again
    as fabulous as he was In 09-11 REAL ALL TIME LEGENDS are made In big matches not opta spreadsheets or heat maps

    See if Paolo Rossi in the Entire 1982 WC had as many touches,dribbles,key passes,fouls won, as neymar had did in just THREE random groupstage match vs Mexico,Costa and Serbia ?
    https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/1...ternational-FIFA-World-Cup-2018-Brazil-Mexico
    https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/1...ternational-FIFA-World-Cup-2018-Serbia-Brazil
    https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/1...ational-FIFA-World-Cup-2018-Brazil-Costa-Rica

    280 touches
    14 dribbles completed
    12 key passes
    in just
    3matches
    WOW!!!!!!



    Now go And find me one list written by a
    Englishman
    Brazilian(not named tropiero)
    Frenchman
    Dutchman
    Italian
    Alien
    Who are dared to rank neymar 18 as a superior WC performance to Rossi 82

    If anyone did His career in sports journalism would be over before his list hits the print

    Statistics without context are just completely random numbers.

    Meaningless
     
  17. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member+

    Jun 1, 2018
    I talk what I see and I show what number says, Ronaldo 11/12 wasn't any better than 10/11 if something he looked worse. Cristiano best match against Barcelona was in 2010-11 season not in 2011-2.

    Yes, he was all of that (and still more visible in the 07/8 and 09/10 season)... a better dribbler, more distance covered, more touches, more solo actions, probably more solo goals, better athlete etc. But at least 11/12 was closer to his previous two season than 12/13 (where he clearly looked a level down to his peak).

    A 09/10 Ronaldo or 07/08 Ronaldo in the Real Madrid 2011/2 team would score more solo goals, be more a solo threat, be a much better dribbler etc.


    Maybe you are not one of the most intelligent guy I know, but still you surprise me of how non attentive you can be.
    I make a review of Ronaldo influence in all Real Madrid matches (UCL and La Liga) based on Elo ratings (club Elo)

    [​IMG]



    Different players. There are reasons that Rossi 82 can't be compared to Cruyff 74 and Maradona 86, Eusebio 66, Garrincha 62 or even Pelé 70. He wasn't there to class, perhaps neither in R9 02 class.
    Neymar had 5.8 dribbles per match and 4.6 key passes per match, almost 400 progressive yards runs in 2018 while shooting a lot as well. He was the leader in xG and xA per match. These are real OBJECTIVE numbers. Brazil was actually unlucky vs Belgium and that's it, but the difference between Brazil's expected goals vs Belgium's expected goals was pretty obvious. Had he won that WC and he would be one of the best performers in the WC history.

    PD: Neymar was out of form in 2018 (coming of injuries) and Rossi had his life tournament. Neymar was below his peak level there and Rossi never matched his 82 form, period.

    Class. The same way Cristiano Ronaldo 11/12 was a level below (moreso in terms of being self-suficient) than 09-10 and 10-11 (specially 09-10) and Cristiano wasn't decisive as Rossi 82 neither he was putting deep number of Neymar 18.


    Ronaldo 11-12 in fact is overinflated. I had his rating of UCL matches from Gazzetta Dello Sport and he was not even the best player of his team there, I will try to find it again.
     
  18. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #93 carlito86, Jun 7, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2020
    We fundamentally disagree on how the game should be viewed

    Ronaldos best performance vs Barcelona 10/11 came in the copa del Rey

    This a competition of secondary importance
    You don't compare that to a winner in nou camp to clinch the la liga title
    That's where context comes into play (something you are entirely unfamiliar with)

    The Hattrick he scored in the Calderon

    Ronaldo 09/10,10/11 and arguably even 07/08 never did that or even got close to doing that

    Tropiero says
    "I talk what i see and what the number says"
    Sounds like robotic/mechanical analysis completely devoid of context

    Prime Real Madrid/ prime bayern/prime juventus/prime Barcelona with or without some of their star players are expected to defeat or even destroy teams dynamo Zagreb and Ajax

    3rd division Ponferradina
    This a joke analyis



    PHD Tropiero
    (PAY HEED D***HEAD):

    Santos 1963 beat AC Milan 4-2 without Pele even on the pitch
    That is Milan with prime Rivera and prime altafini
    https://www.transfermarkt.com/santos-fc_milan-ac/index/spielbericht/1169611

    You know Brazil 62 scored 12 goals in 4 matches without Pele even on the pitch
    At world cup KO stage level against ELITE NTs
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1962_FIFA_World_Cup

    With results like that you can make assertions that a team is dominant with or without their star player
    Not results against flipping dynamo Zagreb (and Ponferradina LMFAO)

    I actually don't know if you're playing around or just inherently stupid



    Facts are
    Ronaldo 11/12 participated in all 38 la liga matches
    Real Madrid won the league with 100 points
    Was extremely dominant vs top 6 teams
    was by far the highest rated Madrid player according to DBS calcio
    Had most goals and dribbles on his team and 2nd most assists on his team after ozil

    There is no revisionism just blinding facts

    every single team he faced He owned



    Now Feel free to post more redundant statistics
     
  19. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Cool story bro :thumbsup:

    ESM 2011/12
    Screenshot_20200607-145319-2.jpg


    DBS calcio la liga 11/12
    Screenshot_20200608-021637-1.jpg



    CL campaign 11/12
    Screenshot_20200608-020513-1.jpg
     
  20. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member+

    Jun 1, 2018
    and they did. Period. Superteams. With Ronaldo and without Ronaldo, they are destroying teams, maybe Ronaldo won 2 or 3 points in La Liga for them, but without Ronaldo they are going to 90 or 95+ points (if not 100) anyway.

    11/12 Ronaldo was more a system player than before (in one of the best systems of all time). You can't compare Real Madrid 10-11 and 09-10 with 11-12. 11-12 Real Madrid was much better.

    2007/8 is his best season probably, also he won more titles (and he was a bit better in 09/10 and 10/11). 11-12 btw is probably his worse dribbling season at Madrid.
     
  21. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member+

    Jun 1, 2018
    pesstatsdatabase as a source. :ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:
     
    Legolas10 repped this.
  22. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Every single moderator
    And every single contributor

    On that specific thread has significantly more knowledge of that player than you

    :rolleyes:
     
  23. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member+

    Jun 1, 2018
    It is your level.
     
  24. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #100 carlito86, Jun 14, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2020
    Does Lionel Messi go up an extra gear at the camp nou?
    And is the home advantage really a scientific fact or something that people just say?


    I've been checking home vs away performances with the help of whoscored and according to their method Messi almost always consistently performs better at home
    Sometimes to the extent that he is really a different player

    First I'll be comparing home vs away league performances of Messi vs Ronaldo during select seasons widely considered to be their best

    2009/10
    2010/11
    2011/12
    2014/15




    2009/10

    Away record
    Screenshot_20200614-194031-1.jpg


    Ronaldo:8.44

    Messi:8.43

    Identical


    Home record
    Screenshot_20200614-192229-1.jpg


    Messi:8.90

    Ronaldo:8.63

    2010/11

    Home record
    Screenshot_20200614-195405-1.jpg

    Cristiano ronaldo:8.83

    Lionel Messi:8.71


    Away record
    Screenshot_20200614-195337-1.jpg

    Lionel Messi:8.80
    Cristiano ronaldo:7.92

    Messi breaks the trend in 2010/11

    The only time in his career where he significantly performs better away from home and ironically this is according to most analysts his career best season

    2011/12

    Home
    Screenshot_20200614-200657-1-1.jpg

    Messi at the camp nou records a supernatural 9.5 rating over 1620 minutes (equivalent 18 matches)
    35 goals+10 assists in 18 matches is unreal
    almost made up

    Meanwhile at the bernabue Ronaldo is well below this on 8.25


    Away
    Screenshot_20200614-200645-1.jpg
    Whoscored rating

    Cristiano ronaldo:8.31

    Lionel Messi:8.31

    Identical players



    They are almost 2 completely different players
    Messi at home vs Messi away from home

    Messi away from home now 'only' scores 15 goals in 18 matches(20 less goals over an identical period)

    1.4 less dribbles
    Less assists
    Less key passes

    How does one interpret this data
    Did prime Barcelona at the camp nou benefit from some inexplicable psychological advantage?
    Does Messi consciously decide to turn it up a whole level at home?


    The trend follows into 2014/15 considered by some (not myself) to be his career best season

    2014/15

    Away
    Screenshot_20200614-204635-1.jpg

    Messi: 8.43

    Cristiano:8.40


    identical rating


    Home
    Screenshot_20200614-204620-1.jpg
    Whoscored rating

    Messi 9.25

    Cristiano:8.58


    I've checked the only season Ronaldo performed way above his average level at home was 2010/11 and he was widely criticised for this( for scoring in bunches at home against depleted teams,and stat padding when the match was almost over)


    I mean it is obviously understandable for any player to be a bit better at home especially with the 'home advantage',refs giving you a few more favourable calls,the home fans etc

    But 2011/12 home Messi vs away Messi were not the same player
    Really not at all
    The same could also be said for 2014/15 (to a slighltly lesser extent)

    Is it any wonder 2010/11 is considered to be his most complete and clutch version
    The one season he performed far above his average away from home
     

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