I'm not the one saying conclusively that Maradona wouldn't do well in any scenario besides those that he excelled in. You're the one saying that wrt Messi/Cristiano. A great player will be great in any era and any league really. The league vs league argument imo ended a while back, it's too homogenous now and I think Messi proves more playing in Valverde's Barca than going to Pep's Bayern and Pep's Man City. On the surface he'd have played in three different teams and leagues but really he'd have made fewer adjustments than he did from Rijkaard to Valverde through Pep and Enrique.
I'm not so sure that is the case. For all the differences, there are certain "Barcelona DNA" that remains regardless of the changes in the manager. Also, he plays with the same set of players, subject to slight changes each year, so there is minimal need for new chemistry to be established.
I'd say this DNA is likelier to be found if he played in a Pep team than any Barca team he has played for post-Vilanova (RIP). If any club signed Messi or CR7 they would be doing everything to ensure their players play to the strengths of these players (Juve dropping Dybala last season because Mandzukic was more likely to bring the best of CR7 f.e.). IMO it really proves little about a player's ability. Maybe their mental capacity to adapt to new surroundings
Messi plays in a league where there are barely two or three teams on the dispute. Look at the last 10-20 years of the Premier League and how many ups and downs the teams have. Cristiano Ronaldo his average goals and his legacy would have been affected if he had stayed at Manchester United, for example. Other myth is: Ronaldo has become a faster and more direct player in La Liga, that's an impression. Cristiano had to use a lot more tricks, skills, stepovers, footwork, ball control, speed and energy to dribble past defenders in England than in Spain. In Spain he saw that he didn't always need to use his repertoire of tricks and that all he had to do was run over his opponents, the easy it was compared. In England also much more contact is allowed than in Spain, which would have drained his legs much earlier. In my opinion Cristiano arrived in Spain in the middle of his peak and it was the best choice.
If only he had passed the memo to Hazard and Bale. Or the rest of Europe as La Liga dominated for close to a decade.
Ok So now You're just being typically/playfully disingenuous Falcao had a career defining injury at Monaco that preceded his move to English football Falcao in his prime obliterated English champions league holders Chelsea in 2013 So please stop Players like soladao are more like exceptions to the rule It's not like he set the world alight in Spain either What alot of people to realise when certain players fail to shine in other leagues is external factors Different culture,weather,family struggling to settle etc They are human beings at the end of the day It is way too simplistic to suggest its soley because one football style is superior to another Why did andriy shevchenco fail in the premiership 2 years after winning the ballon for Was his serie A record questionable because of this?
Every so often on youtube there appears a hidden gem 20 min comp on ronaldinho in his prime 2005/06 Enjoy
His 09/10 campaign, while trophyless, was fantastic on an individual level. He scored 6 direct free-kicks & 7 solo goals & recorded his highest ever successful dribbles & key pass figures per 90 minutes (3.3 & 2.7 respectively) with Los Blancos. pic.twitter.com/70RaXVkmWQ— Managing Madrid (@managingmadrid) August 30, 2018 17 MOTM awards in 33 starts(league and CL)is the most unreal stat from this campaign You can argue all day long but this was IMO all things considered (his CL ratings also)the best debut campaign ive seen La liga was either the best or fighting neck and neck with the PL in 2010( and overtook it shortly thereafter) This is not bundesliga,or ligue 1 or eredivisie This was literally against the best set of club opponents he could've faced anywhere in world football Ive been advocating on behalf of a few legendary campaigns on this thread Perhaps @tropiero you could weigh in Have you seen van basten/ronaldinho/romario demonstrate a level of sustained and relentless all round brilliance as CR did over this campaign He was a goal a game player One of the top dribblers in la liga One of the best FK takers in the world 2.7 KP per 90 was one of the highest in la liga too He was winning games on his own with almost unparalleled consistency He covered the most ground by any player in the entire league(will provide source later) All the while being its most fouled player Its important to ask Because when you are asking the question is CRs peak better than player x(whoever) What is the peak of a player who was a top 2 player in world football for 10 years
4 pages and 0 mentions 2011/12 60 Goals+15 assists as a LW 8 ESM team of the month rankings in a single season https://www.erubik.xyz/esm/player.php?id=Cristiano_Ronaldo The highest in history after Messi 11/12(who received a maximum of 9/9) 7.5 DBS calcio rating No one in la liga history received this grade outside of Messi And especially not one who played all 38 league matches(a machine) Was a ridiculous athlete,very good 1 vs 1 dribbler ,Excellent crosser, indomitable in the air,still tracked back to defend Scored in a all time record 27 la liga matches(out of 38) Scored against all 19 la liga opponents in a single season Unparalleled decisiveness Scored winner in the camp nou vs runner up Barcelona to clinch la liga Scored the winner in a 3-2 defeat of 3rd place Valencia Scored Hattricks vs 4th place Malaga 5th place atletico Madrid 6th place levante Scored 10 CL goals in 9 appearances Made Euro team of the tournament His performance vs Netherlands was graded the highest in the competition Ronaldo was 2 penalty kicks (vs bayern and Spain) from having arguably the greatest season in history One penalty he missed and one He never got to take All the ingredients were there From decisiveness in big teams Relentless consistency throughout a season Historic end product Only thing is he clinched 1 major trophy out of 3 available Euro+CL>la liga Which detracts away from the historical significance of his campaign However No way on earth can this campaign be totally ignored in a discussion as this
I must've missed it unintentionally because i only checked forwards/midfielders You know ones like Ronaldo nazario Luis Suarez Ronaldinho Rivaldo Neymar Robben Hazard Ibrahimovic Van persie Zidane Xavi Iniesta Those kinds of players I dont know any elite centre backs VVD 18/19 was competing against for ESM spots Umtiti Otamendi 33 year old thiago silva 33 year old cheillini Ramos 17/18 Boateng 17/18 Vincent kompany These are historic names or players coming off historic seasons? Maybe you have a spin You know Ronaldos 11/12 challengers for ESM spots?
Left foot cross assist from 40-50 yards Great 1 vs 1 wingplay followed by an excellent left foot cross(and the finish by benzema as the title suggests was 88 van basten esque) Great cross assist to earn a point in a 1-1 draw vs 4th place Malaga 1:01 Again this is just the tip of the iceberg https://www.whoscored.com/Articles/...how/Euro-2012-Focus-Player-Stats-Leaderboards https://www.firstpost.com/fwire/pirlo-impossible-to-better-than-ronaldo-messi-358218.html https://amp.sportsmole.co.uk/footba...efano-tips-ronaldo-for-ballon-dor_120513.html A level of individual dominance was reached across all levels by Messi/Ronaldo that only Pele in some peak years can challenge/surpass It is a complete joke to compare Maradona 78-82 (Goals in the Argentine division)where Johnny nobodies like Sergio Fortunato or Andreucci top scored Prime andreucci failed in the Greek division Prime Sergio fortunato scored 2 goals in 12 serie A games for peruvia These guys scored as much or more than Maradona in certain seasons between 77-81 Pirlo shares the honour of best individual match performance with Cristiano Ronaldo, the former getting a mark of 8.80 for his exhibition of passing against England, the latter for his demolition job on Holland. https://www.theguardian.com/football/2012/jul/02/euro-2012-andres-iniesta-guardian-readers With everything on the line on June 17, 2012, 19:45 CEST, and with Ronaldo at the peak of his physical and technical powers, Portugal’s favored son finally broke free from his lethargic spell and laid waste to the Dutchmen. Starting on the left in a simple, but effective, counter-attacking scheme, Ronaldo began his movements on the touchline before cutting inside to attack goal in his vintage inside forward role. Statistically, Ronaldo was on another playing field compared to everyone else on the pitch. He managed 2 goals, 12 shots (only 2 less than that of the entire Dutch team), 12 touches inside the box, 3 chances created, and 1 through ball — and a successful dribble for good measure — off of only 42 touches Put simply, Ronaldo was untouchable — a phantom that eluded the Netherland’s desperate clutches. https://medium.com/@supersain5/cris...ro-2012-portugal-2-1-netherlands-d3cdf64061e5 Gabrielle marcotti 2012 "So how to explain the Messi-Ronaldo phenomenon? The best answer may be the least satisfying. These are simply two brilliant players, both of whom are likely among the greatest ever. Their numbers and their performances are so out of kilter with what the game is used to that they are the soccer equivalent of Wilt Chamberlain and Wayne Gretzky—players whose domination of the sport is so thorough that it's difficult to digest https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052702304724404577289380688703556 All time peaks reached in both the league and European championships Combined with 10 CL goals Is something that has rarely been achieved in entire careers let alone a single campaign
He was still a very good athlete, but his athleticism declined if compared to 10/11 Very good dribbler = that season he wasn't, he had something like 2 dribbles completed out of 5 attempts. Excellent crosser = OK (but hard to compare him with other excellent crossers, I don't have that info) Tracked back to defend = rare. In the Euro with Portugal even less. He was waitiing for the counter attack all the time basically. Ronaldo 07/08, 09/10 was better than 11/12 imo (and 10/11 as well). He was a better athlete (peak athleticism), better dribbler (sucess rate + more solo goals), he was more involved and was more a one-man weapon before. In 11/12 he took his time, was more a system player and Real Madrid was much better than the last seasons before (Mourinho peaked this season and Real Madrid with or without Ronaldo was destroying teams for fun).
Legends Tropiero are made In big matches and not opta spreadsheets or heat maps 10/11 Ronaldo had marginally more touches,marginally more dribbles Was more agile etc....... That's nice How many open play goals vs Barcelona? 3rd place Valencia? Just Check his DBS calcio ratings One was a machine from matchday 1 to matchday 38 The other scored in bunches Was he notably more athletically imposing in 10/11 than 11/12? Youre Devlving now completely into subjective territory Do you have data for distance covered per match Top speed You know He literally played all 38 league matches? Which teams did real Madrid in la liga 11/12 destroy without Ronaldo? Ronaldo missed one match all season against Ponferradina in the copa del Rey Real Madrid destroyed them 5-1 The mighty Ponferradina 11/12 finished 4th place in the third division of Spanish football https://es.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tercera_División_de_España_2011-12 this is evidence of Madrid being dominant without him? And again as fabulous as he was In 09-11 REAL ALL TIME LEGENDS are made In big matches not opta spreadsheets or heat maps See if Paolo Rossi in the Entire 1982 WC had as many touches,dribbles,key passes,fouls won, as neymar had did in just THREE random groupstage match vs Mexico,Costa and Serbia ? https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/1...ternational-FIFA-World-Cup-2018-Brazil-Mexico https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/1...ternational-FIFA-World-Cup-2018-Serbia-Brazil https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/1...ational-FIFA-World-Cup-2018-Brazil-Costa-Rica 280 touches 14 dribbles completed 12 key passes in just 3matches WOW!!!!!! Now go And find me one list written by a Englishman Brazilian(not named tropiero) Frenchman Dutchman Italian Alien Who are dared to rank neymar 18 as a superior WC performance to Rossi 82 If anyone did His career in sports journalism would be over before his list hits the print Statistics without context are just completely random numbers. Meaningless
I talk what I see and I show what number says, Ronaldo 11/12 wasn't any better than 10/11 if something he looked worse. Cristiano best match against Barcelona was in 2010-11 season not in 2011-2. Yes, he was all of that (and still more visible in the 07/8 and 09/10 season)... a better dribbler, more distance covered, more touches, more solo actions, probably more solo goals, better athlete etc. But at least 11/12 was closer to his previous two season than 12/13 (where he clearly looked a level down to his peak). A 09/10 Ronaldo or 07/08 Ronaldo in the Real Madrid 2011/2 team would score more solo goals, be more a solo threat, be a much better dribbler etc. Maybe you are not one of the most intelligent guy I know, but still you surprise me of how non attentive you can be. I make a review of Ronaldo influence in all Real Madrid matches (UCL and La Liga) based on Elo ratings (club Elo) Different players. There are reasons that Rossi 82 can't be compared to Cruyff 74 and Maradona 86, Eusebio 66, Garrincha 62 or even Pelé 70. He wasn't there to class, perhaps neither in R9 02 class. Neymar had 5.8 dribbles per match and 4.6 key passes per match, almost 400 progressive yards runs in 2018 while shooting a lot as well. He was the leader in xG and xA per match. These are real OBJECTIVE numbers. Brazil was actually unlucky vs Belgium and that's it, but the difference between Brazil's expected goals vs Belgium's expected goals was pretty obvious. Had he won that WC and he would be one of the best performers in the WC history. PD: Neymar was out of form in 2018 (coming of injuries) and Rossi had his life tournament. Neymar was below his peak level there and Rossi never matched his 82 form, period. Class. The same way Cristiano Ronaldo 11/12 was a level below (moreso in terms of being self-suficient) than 09-10 and 10-11 (specially 09-10) and Cristiano wasn't decisive as Rossi 82 neither he was putting deep number of Neymar 18. Ronaldo 11-12 in fact is overinflated. I had his rating of UCL matches from Gazzetta Dello Sport and he was not even the best player of his team there, I will try to find it again.
We fundamentally disagree on how the game should be viewed Ronaldos best performance vs Barcelona 10/11 came in the copa del Rey This a competition of secondary importance You don't compare that to a winner in nou camp to clinch the la liga title That's where context comes into play (something you are entirely unfamiliar with) The Hattrick he scored in the Calderon Ronaldo 09/10,10/11 and arguably even 07/08 never did that or even got close to doing that Tropiero says "I talk what i see and what the number says" Sounds like robotic/mechanical analysis completely devoid of context Prime Real Madrid/ prime bayern/prime juventus/prime Barcelona with or without some of their star players are expected to defeat or even destroy teams dynamo Zagreb and Ajax 3rd division Ponferradina This a joke analyis PHD Tropiero (PAY HEED D***HEAD): Santos 1963 beat AC Milan 4-2 without Pele even on the pitch That is Milan with prime Rivera and prime altafini https://www.transfermarkt.com/santos-fc_milan-ac/index/spielbericht/1169611 You know Brazil 62 scored 12 goals in 4 matches without Pele even on the pitch At world cup KO stage level against ELITE NTs https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1962_FIFA_World_Cup With results like that you can make assertions that a team is dominant with or without their star player Not results against flipping dynamo Zagreb (and Ponferradina LMFAO) I actually don't know if you're playing around or just inherently stupid Facts are Ronaldo 11/12 participated in all 38 la liga matches Real Madrid won the league with 100 points Was extremely dominant vs top 6 teams was by far the highest rated Madrid player according to DBS calcio Had most goals and dribbles on his team and 2nd most assists on his team after ozil There is no revisionism just blinding facts every single team he faced He owned Now Feel free to post more redundant statistics
and they did. Period. Superteams. With Ronaldo and without Ronaldo, they are destroying teams, maybe Ronaldo won 2 or 3 points in La Liga for them, but without Ronaldo they are going to 90 or 95+ points (if not 100) anyway. 11/12 Ronaldo was more a system player than before (in one of the best systems of all time). You can't compare Real Madrid 10-11 and 09-10 with 11-12. 11-12 Real Madrid was much better. 2007/8 is his best season probably, also he won more titles (and he was a bit better in 09/10 and 10/11). 11-12 btw is probably his worse dribbling season at Madrid.
Every single moderator And every single contributor On that specific thread has significantly more knowledge of that player than you
Does Lionel Messi go up an extra gear at the camp nou? And is the home advantage really a scientific fact or something that people just say? I've been checking home vs away performances with the help of whoscored and according to their method Messi almost always consistently performs better at home Sometimes to the extent that he is really a different player First I'll be comparing home vs away league performances of Messi vs Ronaldo during select seasons widely considered to be their best 2009/10 2010/11 2011/12 2014/15 2009/10 Away record Ronaldo:8.44 Messi:8.43 Identical Home record Messi:8.90 Ronaldo:8.63 2010/11 Home record Cristiano ronaldo:8.83 Lionel Messi:8.71 Away record Lionel Messi:8.80 Cristiano ronaldo:7.92 Messi breaks the trend in 2010/11 The only time in his career where he significantly performs better away from home and ironically this is according to most analysts his career best season 2011/12 Home Messi at the camp nou records a supernatural 9.5 rating over 1620 minutes (equivalent 18 matches) 35 goals+10 assists in 18 matches is unreal almost made up Meanwhile at the bernabue Ronaldo is well below this on 8.25 Away Whoscored rating Cristiano ronaldo:8.31 Lionel Messi:8.31 Identical players They are almost 2 completely different players Messi at home vs Messi away from home Messi away from home now 'only' scores 15 goals in 18 matches(20 less goals over an identical period) 1.4 less dribbles Less assists Less key passes How does one interpret this data Did prime Barcelona at the camp nou benefit from some inexplicable psychological advantage? Does Messi consciously decide to turn it up a whole level at home? The trend follows into 2014/15 considered by some (not myself) to be his career best season 2014/15 Away Messi: 8.43 Cristiano:8.40 identical rating Home Whoscored rating Messi 9.25 Cristiano:8.58 I've checked the only season Ronaldo performed way above his average level at home was 2010/11 and he was widely criticised for this( for scoring in bunches at home against depleted teams,and stat padding when the match was almost over) I mean it is obviously understandable for any player to be a bit better at home especially with the 'home advantage',refs giving you a few more favourable calls,the home fans etc But 2011/12 home Messi vs away Messi were not the same player Really not at all The same could also be said for 2014/15 (to a slighltly lesser extent) Is it any wonder 2010/11 is considered to be his most complete and clutch version The one season he performed far above his average away from home