Greatest Hockey Player of All time?

Discussion in 'Ice Hockey' started by Neo¹, Nov 26, 2004.

  1. Neo¹

    Neo¹ Member

    Sep 17, 2004
    Some people Say Lemeux or Bobby Orr, I say Gretzsky.

    What about you?


    BTW, I know I spelt some of the names right so you dont have to mention it.


    -N1
     
  2. afgrijselijkheid

    Dec 29, 2002
    mokum
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
  3. Glenwood Lane United

    Apr 28, 2001
    Hanover Park, IL
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think you can make a valid case for Howe, Orr, LEmieux, Gretzky, and maybe even Lemieux.

    I'll say Orr just because he revolutionized the game more than the others. Until Orr came along, dmen rarely joined or led a rush into the offensive zone, and now that's standarad. I also think it's easier for a defenseman to control a game, and Orr did just that.

    Tough question.
     
  4. atlheel

    atlheel New Member

    Nov 19, 2004
    Atlanta/Chapel Hill
    Valeri Kharlamov.
     
  5. cleansheetbsc

    cleansheetbsc Member+

    Mar 17, 2004
    Club:
    --other--
    Conversation starts and ends with Gretzky. Not the greatest defensive player, but when you take into account that he was what 5'10" and 170 lbs, soaking wet, what he did was simply amazing. His stats per game compared to all others are head & shoulders above everyone who ever played.

    As a previous post touted, Orr was fantastic as well. I'll put him second.

    Lemiuex with a healthy back may have been better than Gretzky, but there are no do-overs.
     
  6. atlheel

    atlheel New Member

    Nov 19, 2004
    Atlanta/Chapel Hill
    Only because Kharlamov never played in the NHL to challenge Gretzky's stats. Don't get me wrong, Gretzky's an unbelieveable player, but I'd say Kharlamov could have challenged him in any aspect of the game.
     
  7. Glenwood Lane United

    Apr 28, 2001
    Hanover Park, IL
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That'll be forever one of those "what if" questions.

    After he came over to the NHL, Sergei Makarov made an interesting comment about the difference between the NHL and international hockey. He said that in the NHL every night was a tough game. While he played for the Red Army, he said that he only had to "get up" for about 10 games per year. I wish I had a link for the exact quote--I originally heard it on a Chicago Blackhawks broadcast. I'm guessing those 10 games were club games. Internationally, the Red Army/USSR probably would add to that total.

    Point being: comparisons between Kharlamov any great player that played in the NHL are speculative.
     
  8. otterulz

    otterulz Member

    Arsenal, Atleti
    South Korea
    Jun 20, 2002
    LIC, NY
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'd say Gretzky. Not only because of the records he shattered, but because of what he did for the NHL as a whole. I know this is ripping it off from the ESPN Sports Century, but there would be no franchises in Florida and Arizona and any other city that doesn't know what snow is if it weren't for Gretzky being an ambassador for the NHL.

    I agree though, if Lemieux was healthy, I think we could've broken Gretzky's goal scoring record. It's tough to say.
     
  9. atlheel

    atlheel New Member

    Nov 19, 2004
    Atlanta/Chapel Hill
    That's an interesting quote, because it actually makes the case that Kharlamov would have been a better player in the NHL, if he was "up" for every game. Really, though, I doubt an NHL season would have been too tough for a player in the Soviet training system. The defectors after him seemed to do all right.

    I think there was enough international competion to make it a somewhat interesting debate. I mean hell, Bobby Clarke had to break his ankle his ankle in '72 so the Canadians could win the Summit Series :D

    Honestly, I agree, it's a nearly impossible comparison to make stats-wise (his skills obviously were observable), but I like to bring him up, mostly to remind people that Canada isn't the only country to put out all-time greats. I'll also argue that Vladislav Tretiak was the best goalie ever to play the game.
     
  10. Glenwood Lane United

    Apr 28, 2001
    Hanover Park, IL
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I do the same with Gordie Howe, and always bring up old-timers like Frank McGee, Aurel Joliat, and Howie Morenz. I think that the four greatest NHL players were Howe, Orr, Gretzky, & Lemieux, but think only HOwe could have thrived in the 1950's where everyone had to take care of himself on the ice.
     
  11. Captain Splarg

    Apr 25, 1999
    Pacific Grove, CA
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
  12. sarabella

    sarabella BigSoccer Supporter

    Jun 22, 2004
    UK
    I vote for Gordie Howe.
     
  13. Chizzy

    Chizzy Member

    United States
    Aug 7, 2003
    Upper Left, USA
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This is no brainer. The Great One.
     
  14. Ian McCracken

    Ian McCracken Member

    May 28, 1999
    USA
    Club:
    SS Lazio Roma
    Nat'l Team:
    Italy
    Living in Detroit, everyone here says Howe. I never saw Howe play in his prime, but I've got to go with Gretzky. He was absolutely amazing and his stats dwarfed everybody else, sometimes doubling the point totals of his nearest rivals.
     
  15. cleansheetbsc

    cleansheetbsc Member+

    Mar 17, 2004
    Club:
    --other--
    If Tretiak were so great, he wouldn't have been benched after 20 minutes against a bunch of mediocre college kids and a coach wearing a polyester leisure suit on February 22, 1980. :)

    Honestly, I know very little of the USSR greats pre 1980 (became a big fan of puck when I was 11, Rangers playoff run of 1979). Lets just say "Hockey Night in USSR" wasn't seen too much outside of the iron-curtain. I am not doubting their talent, but the lack of top-flight competition on a regular basis is a problem. However there is much that I was able to do to see what the likes of Howe, Orr etc. did before I started watching regularly.

    The reason I say Gretzky is based purely on statistics and how head and shoulders the difference is between #1 and #2. Its rediculous.

    The only athletes ever to dominate with these types of difference between them and the rest of their sport are Gretzky, Jack Nicklaus (a whole other argument can be made on old-time golfers using the equipment of today) and Babe Ruth.
     
  16. writered21

    writered21 Member+

    Jul 14, 2001
    Middle of the Road
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I've got to go with Gretzky, since my span of watching hockey covers 1981 on. He's by far the best player I've ever seen in person, and if they played in the last 23 years, I've seen them based on the number of games I've been to in my life.

    What hurts Gretzky just a little bit in these discussions is that the 1990 Oilers won the Stanley Cup without him. It's a tough ride to say that hurts his legacy, but you'll find that argue it.

    I wish I were old enough to have seen Orr play, as well as Howe.

    Even in my time watching the game, though, there have been so many great players that were probably just under Gretzky's level ... Lemieux, Bossy, Potvin, Bourque, Dionne, Robitaille, Francis, Gartner, Roy, Savard, Chelios, the list goes on and on.

    An interesting secondary discussion is who would be the greatest goalie of all time, or what is the greatest individual skater and goalie season of all time.
     
  17. cleansheetbsc

    cleansheetbsc Member+

    Mar 17, 2004
    Club:
    --other--
    I don't think the '90 Oilers hurts Gretzky. I think you can cancel that out by getting the Kings to the Cup Finals and winning a Game 7 in Toronto to get there. His run with the Rangers in '97 to the semifinals was very good as well. His play prior to the Oilers cup victories was very good as well.

    As for your list of just under's, Lemieux, Bossy, (Beat your Wife) Potvin, Borque and Roy yes. I would throw in Trottier as well. The rest were compilers of statistics over very long successful careers.

    Goalie argument is probably a horse race with Tretiak leading Dryden by a length and Roy as the newcomer to the argument coming up on the outside.
     
  18. cleansheetbsc

    cleansheetbsc Member+

    Mar 17, 2004
    Club:
    --other--
    Jeez. I'm a Ranger fan, left of Messier with those under Gretz. on the second tier.
     
  19. writered21

    writered21 Member+

    Jul 14, 2001
    Middle of the Road
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Not on purpose.

    The list would go on: Messier, Hull, Andreychuk, Jagr (maybe), Stevens, Kerr, Neely, Robinson, Yzerman (should be on a list above these guys but below Gretzky), Mullen (the original US goal scorer), Selanne (I guess), Kurri (love Kurri).

    That's what happens when there's no games to talk about.
     
  20. cleansheetbsc

    cleansheetbsc Member+

    Mar 17, 2004
    Club:
    --other--
    Paul Coffey, Dale Hawerchuk, Petr Stasny and Perrault from Buffalo.

    Dammit, make it a 21 team league with teams in Winnipeg and Quebec City.

    Islanders Suck
    Flyers Suck
    Devils are the Colorado Rockies in disguise.
     
  21. writered21

    writered21 Member+

    Jul 14, 2001
    Middle of the Road
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Aye. I'd raise a glass to that.

    Actually, I could even live with 24 teams, but no more:

    Patrick: Washington, New York Rangers, New York Islanders, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, New Jersey (this was my favorite division in sports, especially when we had the old Divisional Playoffs).

    Adams: Boston, Buffalo, Hartford, Quebec, Montreal, Ottawa (I'd want a team there).

    Norris: Toronto, Chicago, Detroit, St. Louis, Minnesota, Columbus (I'd give 'em a pass - good following).

    Smythe: Winnipeg, Vancouver, Calgary, Edmonton, Los Angeles, Colorado (I'd leave the Avalanche here, too. 2 Cups, good following, they've earned it).

    Let me see if I can also come up with a lockout solution while I'm off in dreamland. :D

    I know it was a little thing, but I really believe the division renaming and realignment was one of the worst things Bettman did - among a litany of screwups our version of Buttermaker has put together.
     
  22. atlheel

    atlheel New Member

    Nov 19, 2004
    Atlanta/Chapel Hill
    Ah, but that's why they lost ;) I wasn't claiming Tikhonov was the best coach ever.

    And while I recognize the joke, I would like to point out that Tretiak was the top Red Army goalie from the age of 17 and the first Russian-born player to be inducted into the Hockey Hall of Fame.
     
  23. adega1980

    adega1980 New Member

    Apr 13, 2004
    east vancouver
    harold snepsts is the greatest player of all time
     
  24. Matt in the Hat

    Matt in the Hat Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 21, 2002
    Brooklyn
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    What no goaltenders?
    Patrick Roy is the greatest. Martin Brodeur and Billy Smith are a close second and third.
     
  25. atlheel

    atlheel New Member

    Nov 19, 2004
    Atlanta/Chapel Hill
    Tretiak is the greatest. And we did discuss goalies somewhere up there.
     

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