Tony, as an Netherlands expert. Do you have suggestions in other dutch players/formations or being top-4 or top-10 in other eras? I named in top-10 for the years 1974, 78, 90, 94, 98. Mostly in top-4 best generations. Also in the 1908, 12, 20 & 24 years. Bonderline top-10 (1982, 86). Maybe 1970, too
thanx for the nice words but i would hardly call myself an expert. hmm let me think sugestions for players being top 4 or top 10 in certain era's ? ofcourse faas wilkes comes to mind in the mid 50's playing for valencia. maybe cor van der hart in the early 50's goalkeeper frans de munck probably top 10 goalkeepers in europe in the 50's. already late 1940's barcelona wanted him but he refused. later player for german club fc koln. personally i would rank jan wouters in the early 90's (playing for ajax and bayern munich) amongst the best DM of europe at that time. a very underrated player. every team needs players like him. johan cruyff noticed that and brought him from small club fc utrecht to ajax in the 80's
Just read this today about River Plate in 1940s www.thefootballmagazine.com/2013/04/08/the-machine-the-greatest-of-them-all anyone any ideas?
btw, is off-topic, mate!!! Maybe, you want to post it in Azulgrana's thread where talking about "The Machine"
[Mark Wright had one hell of a tournament and even managed to score a goal against Egypt in their group match. Wright's performance(s) are often buried under bigger names and he didn't play for a "glory, glory" club w/Derby County IMO. Gary Linker was still in quite dangerous form; netting four goals in the tournament... It's also often forgotten that Peter Beardsley came on as a sub for Barnes in the QF v. Cameroon and started for the rest of the Finals as an effective provider to his goal-scoring "foil" in Lineker...]
You're right, when you said that Netherlands > Argentina considering ELO in the WC '78. But, let's see more details. According to ELO ratings, circa 1970 Argentina was top-10 material, also circa 1974 and circa 1978 was top-4 material. The WC '74 argentinian roster had only 3 players that took part in the WCQ '70. The WC '78 roster had also 3 players that took part in WC 4 years ago. If you check the Independence Cup, Copa America '75 and '79 line-ups. There's not much in common with previous or next squads (+/- 5 players) So, even Argentina having so many changes in their squad between major tournaments, they handle to keep among top-10 nations in the 70s. btw, like i said in another thread, it could be truth that Argentina lacked of a amount of top ATG players that decade, but had a lot good/great players.
I would say all-time greats for Argentina playing during the 70s were Fillol, Gatti, Wolff, Passarella, Ardiles, Lopez, Bochini, Brindisi, Alonso, Kempes, Bertoni, Bianchi and obviously Maradona, despite his youth. You can also make a case for Gallego, Housemann, Babington and Scotta. Overall a strong decade for Argentina football, in fact much stronger than the 80s, but the international results could have been better overall. I think the underachieving has to do with internal politics and some strange decisions by the NT managers rather than the talent not being there.
I think that tje likes of Fillol, Kempes, Bochini and somebody else are top-100 ATG material (but, no top-20), considering that their prime were in the 70s. The others hardly makes it or peaked in the 80s, imho
You can't leave Passarella out, he has the most illustrious career of all Argentine players ever except Maradona, DiStefano and Messi. Also Bertoni and Ardiles should be in the list at the very least. However, your definition of all time great is top 100 ever, which to me is too restrictive and not constant. What happens to #99 and 100 in ten years, when the best three players (or more) of that generation join the list, do they then cease to be all time greats?
not kempes. kempes isn't even in the top 100 all time of strikers alone. lets stay realistic shall we. i can name from the top of my head at least 100 strikers and forwards and second strikers who all of us consider betetr then kempes
Well Kempes was always a FW (not a main striker) and he did very very good in his best form at Valencia late 70's- (A common MISTAKE that thought Kempes was a striker - WRONG) Valencia played 4 3 3with Kempes as left FW --------------------- Fellman -------------- --- Kempes -------------------------Diarte --- Same as Argentina WC78: ------------------- Luque ---------------- ---- Kempes ------------------- Ortiz---- won 2 times Pichichi as a Left FW Won WC78 golden boot and Golden ball ( 1st WC ever for Argentina) Kempes was SURELY in TOP100 best FW/strikers of ANY source. He was AT LEAST on par with Paolo Rossi, Henry .... and > Raul Del Piero
Passarella was great at late 70s, but i think he had more years in the elite in the 80s. About the top-100 list, take it as a way to make it clear. But the key word was top-100 atg material. Since, some agree and others disagree. For example, i rated Bertoni and Ardiles among the best in their respective positions in that era. But not so highly throughout eras.
well then we have different opinions. on rossi you are right he had a good wc 82 but he also is overrated. but henry, raul, del piero are way way better then kempes
of course its just opinionated and personal view ... But if one would make a survey a round (or refer to most lists available) I am quite sure kempes would emerge higher than those names
After some time and valuable new info provided by knowledgeable posters, I'll do a new twist in this thread, and listed the main countries and its generations of great players for each "world cup cycle". I'll go further back to the first international match, looking for these players: - World Class: One of the world best players in his era or clearly the star player for a top/mid level country. - Legend: A world class player who trascended his era to being listed among the greatest players of alltime. I'll try to listed players in his prime years (22-30 aprox. for outfield players and 4 years older for keepers), I'll considered some special cases, too. Any contribution, will be welcome.
1870s1872 (Legend-LE / world class-WC) Scotland: LE - / WC (Gardner, Taylor, Ferguson) England: LE - / WC (Kinnaird) 1876 (Legend-LE / world class-WC) Scotland: LE - / WC (Gardner, Taylor, C.Campbell, B.McKinnon, Ferguson, H.McNeil, Weir) England: LE - / WC (Kinnaird)
1880s1880 (Legend-LE / world class-WC) Scotland: LE - / WC (A.Watson, Vallance, C.Campbell, B.McKinnon, J.Smith, H.McNeil, Weir) England: LE - / WC (Bailey, Bambridge) 1884 (Legend-LE / world class-WC) Scotland: LE (Arnott, N.Ross) / WC (A.Watson, Vallance, J.Gordon, J.Smith, A.Hunter, G.Ker) England: LE - / WC (Bailey, Bambridge) 1888 (Legend-LE / world class-WC) Scotland: LE (Arnott, N.Ross) / WC (McAulay, Doyle, Kelso, Kelly, Gordon, Ker, Hunter, J.Ross) England: LE (J.Goodall) / WC (P.Walters, Holt, Forrest, Lindley, Southworth, Cobbold, Dewhurst) Wales: LE - / WC (Trainer)
1890s1892 (Legend-LE / world class-WC) England: LE (J.Goodall) / WC (Holmes, P.Walters, Reynolds, Holt, Forrest, Bassett, Lindley, J.Southworth, Cobbold, Dewhurst, Chadwick) Scotland: LE - / WC (Doig, McAulay, Doyle, Drummond, Kelso, Cowan,, Kelly, Wilson, Millar, John Campbell, J.Ross, Bell) Wales: LE - / WC (Trainer) 1896 (Legend-LE / world class-WC) England: LE (Needham, Bloomer, GO.Smith) / WC (Robinson, Holmes, Crabtree, Reynolds, Bassett, Athersmith, Chadwick) Scotland: LE - / WC (Doig, N.Smith, Drummond, Gibson, Cowan,, Wilson, Johnny Campbell, John Campbell, Millar, Bell)
1900sOG Paris 1900 (Legend-LE / world class-WC) England: LE (Needham, Bloomer, GO.Smith) / WC (Robinson, Spencer, Crabtree, Frank Forman, Athersmith) Scotland: LE (Raisbeck, Hamilton) / WC (N.Smith, N.Gibson, Aitken, Robertson, Johnny Campbell, McColl, A.Smith) Wales: LE (Meredith) / WC (G.Morris) OG S.Louis 1904 (Legend-LE / world class-WC) Scotland: LE (Raisbeck, McMenemy, Hamilton, Bo.Walker) / WC (Aitken, C.Thomson, McWilliam, Robertson, Hay, McColl, A.Smith) England: LE (Crompton, Woodward) / WC (Spencer, Warren, Frank Forman, Wedlock, Veitch) Wales: LE (Meredith) / WC (Roose, G.Morris) Denmark: LE - / WC (Buchwald) Argentina: LE - / WC (Jorge Brown) OG London 1908 (Legend-LE / world class-WC) England: LE (Hardy, Crompton, Woodward) / WC (Pennington, Warren, C.Roberts, Wedlock, Veitch, Rutherford, Holley) Scotland: LE (McMenemy, Bobby Walker) / WC (McNair, C.Thomson, McWilliam, Hay) Ireland: LE - / WC (B.Scott, McCracken) Wales: LE - / WC (Roose) Denmark: LE - / WC (Buchwald) Netherlands: LE - / WC (de Korver) Boheme: LE - / WC (Kosek) Argentina: LE - / WC (Jorge Brown)
1910sOG Stockholm 1912 (Legend-LE / world class-WC) England: LE (Hardy) / WC (Pennington, C.Roberts, Rutherford, Holley) Scotland: LE - / WC (Brownlie, McNair, J.Gordon) Denmark: LE (N.Middelboe) / WC (S.Nielsen) Ireland: LE - / WC (B.Scott, McCracken, Lacey) Wales: LE - / WC (Russell, Vizard) Boheme: LE - / WC (Kosek, Pilat) Netherlands: LE - / WC (de Korver) Hungary: LE - / WC (Schlosser) Argentina: LE - / WC (Ohaco) Belgium: LE - / WC (van Hege)
Of course, these are not the actual squads in the tournaments. In fact, many names wouldn't have been eligibles under the rules of those olympic games. So, the OG are named only for having "a title" in the 4 years cycle. Each player will be listed two times at most, priorizing the age over real prime, as a generation in a chronological context.
Before I'll post the next decade, I feel like in prewar era, I could be stricter giving "legend class" to some players. Is good to have in mind, at those years, world football was clearly divided into regions (british, escandinavians, danubian, rioplatenses, etc.) and each region was independent to others with few contact between regions, so, there was less development and overall competitions. Resume Legends players 1872-1912: England - 7 (J.Goodall, Needham, Bloomer, G.Smith, Woodward, Crompton, Hardy) Scotland - 6 (Arnott, N.Ross, Raisbeck, R.Hamilton, Bo.Walker, McMenemy) Wales - 1 (Meredith) Denmark - 1 (Middelboe) Hungary - 1 (Schlosser) Hungarian forward was between eras, and I feel has a good case to raise his level after OG 1912.