Also I thought that given the period you have dealt with so far, I thought it might be of some interest to post up some extracts from a seminal series of books called Association Football published in 1960 and edited by Faber and Green. In one section of one of the books they looked back at some of the great overseas players of past years. Some of these may be of interest for these past tournaments. Please note, the text is all theirs, I have merely split it into sections to make it easier to read. Great Czech players Jan Kosek, Baumruck, Fichta, Vaniek, Posek, the one-eyed Janda, Karel Kozeluh, Koletney, Kada. In the German bohemian ranks: Pilar, Dvorazek, Kurpiel, Kubik, Kienzl, Merz, Fischl, Less were most famous. Hungary Alfred Schaffer, centre or inside forward, Pataky, Schlosser, Orth, Szabo, Biro, Sarosi, Titkos, Mandl, the full-backs Rumbold and Revesz, the brothers Konrad, Vogl, Kertesz, Molnar, the goalies Zsak and Platko- I doubt they were ever surpassed. Every one of them at present day values would justify a new English transfer record. Austria Of the greatest Austrian players I shall name only name here M.J. Leuthe, Adolf Fischera, Studnicka, Cohn, Braunsteiner, Karl Pekarna, Popovic, Bauer, Svatoch, Wondrak, Scmieger, Kuthan, Kurz, Blum, Wieser, Bican, Josef Uridil, Binder. Later Ocwirk, Hanappi, Wagner, Zeman, Happel, Melchior, became names popular in every country. Italy De Vecchi, Rosetta, Ferrari, Piola, Meazza, Ferraris, Schiavio, Andreoli, Baloncieri, Caligaris, Combi, Rava, Foni, Parola, Amadei, Bacigalupo and Boniperti were of international fame. Switzerland Dr Ernst Kaltenbach, Schneebeli, Ramseyer, Schmiedlin, Minelli, Sechehaye, Lehmann, Amado, Fatton, Bickel, Pulver, the three brothers Abbeglen are just a few stars of international fame. Sweden Some of the most famous players were Helge Ekroth, Malm, Lindberg, Kock, Fribeg, Kaufeldt, Keller, Rydell, Alfredsson etc. Denmark Jacobsen, Meimcke, Gandil, Buchwald and Axel Andersson were important pioneers and early stars. Spain Zamora, Samitier, Piera, Dr. Alcantara, Aguirrezabala, Quincoces, and in more recent times, Gainza, Basaro, Kubala and Di Stefano were among the world’s finest footballers. Argentina Martino, Santos Gabino Sosa, Paco Garcia, Ignaci Romero, Corazzo, Ferreira, Evaristo and others were only a few of a large bevy of grand players. Di Stefano, Gomez, who moved to Milan FC for a record transfer and signing fee, Montuori, who helped Fiorentina to win a record title show the high level of Argentine soccer. Brazil The mulatto Friedenreich, the negro Leonidas, Fausto, Domingos, Valdemar do Brito, Batataes, Romen and Hercules belonged to the “immortals”.
I agree this is a great and thorough research thread about the football generations before the 1960s. Is there a reason you have Pfaff in there instead of Fritz Walter? Pfaff was a very fine player but he never got the international recognition due to Fritz Walter playing the same position.
The only possible explanation would be that he forgot him. I mean, seriously - Walter not even making the BENCH of a German 1950s team? Edit: I see, age limit for field players was 30 years. Still, leaving out the best player of the team due to this looks a bit strange.
Thanks a lot!!! I really hope, continuing go forward to a closest generations. And get some help to improve my original selections.
I recognized that looks strange. Also, i will not consider Pele into Brazil 1958 team. I'm trying to accurate the term "Generations" to players between 22 to 30 years old in their respective ages, instead they're in theirs peaks.
Re: WC Switzerland 1954 It's a real merit that West Germany won WC'54 since they couldn't have players from DDR and Saarland. Could somebody help me if any of these players were good enough to be part of the Germany team (starter or bench)? * Herbert Schoen - DDR - defender * Gunther Schroter - DDR - forward * Gerhard Siedl - Saarland -forward
Thanks Comme, your list help me a lot to research about some players that i don't know about 1st quarter of the 20th century. Undoubtedly, Denmark and Holland were the strongest sides in continental Europe, those years. Around OG' 1908: Holland = 1862 ELO Bohemia = 1764 ELO Around OG' 1912: Uruguay = 1801 ELO Hungary = 1794 ELO Around OG' 1920: Czechoslovakia = 1835 ELO Hungary = 1820 ELO Around OG' 1924: Holland = 1809 ELO Austria = 1794 ELO
mm why not? If not for his 6goals/4games played Brazil might have not won that WC Pele was among rare players who had peak times in early ages (before 20) - regardless the WC58, his season 59 with >100goals was phenomenon and almost unbreakable record.
This thread is mainly purposed for compared or measured best NTs in their respective eras, through history. So, among several factors, i considered value's players. And to make it more accurate, i only compare generations of players by countries. Main reason is because a normal player reaches his peak at middle age and could be consistency for 6 or 8 years at international level. Before that, there's a growth stage (rookie or promise) and in matture age becomes declining. That's a valid rule for 90% cases!!! And for this thread purposes, this rule allows unifying terms for all teams.
WC Sweden 1958 Top-Ten NTs around 1958 These are the best ELO coefficients between 1957-59: BRAZIL = 2115 ARGENTINA = 2084 HUNGARY = 2041 ENGLAND = 1969 URUGUAY = 1932 GERMANY = 1927 FRANCE = 1913 CZECHOSLOVAKIA = 1894 SWEDEN = 1889 USSR = 1889 Bonus: PERU Also was a Top-10 NT in 1938 and maybe 1954
Re: WC Sweden 1958 You've done a good job so far. Some of the teams surprised me though. I thought more members of La Maquina would have made the Argentina team but not many of them played for Argentina in the 40s. Moreno and Pedernera seemed to be regulars whereas Labruna got more caps in the twilight of his career.
Re: WC Sweden 1958 La Maquina is one of my favorite all times team. Even finishing their better ages in the 2nd half of the 40s, became starters, legends as Rossi or Di Stefano. From 41-45 team: Barrios - Yacono, Vaghi, Ferreyra - Rodolfi, Ramos - Muñoz, Moreno, Pedernera, Labruna, Loustau. In the backline, Yacono & Vaghi were the best players, but defenders as Carlos Sosa or Salomon or Colman were better. In the forward line, based on old south americans magazines: * Although Muñoz was a star and classical right wing (tricky, technical and good assister), Boye was more capped and utility player because his strong shot, diagonal crossing and headed goals. * Labruna was a letal finisher, also technical player, but all his contemporaries consider Martino better than him. Even a spanish magazine picked him as the best #10 in the world at pre-50s. Also, El Grafico, in a poll on 1976 chose Martino as the best argentinian #10 of all times. * About Moreno, i considered part of the 1938 generation, since he was born on 1916 and debuted for his NT at the aged of 20 years.
Re: WC Sweden 1958 Argentina seemed to have a lot of depth at that time. It would have been good if they had the chance to play in a World Cup.
WC Sweden 1958 Best Generations around 1958 BRAZIL World class: Gilmar, D.Santos, Zito, Didi, Garrincha, Julinho, Canhoteiro International class: Castilho, Mauro, Orlando, Bellini, Zozimo, Dino Sani, Vava, Quarentinha, Evaristo, P.Valentim, Indio, Zagalo, Pepe Formation: --------------------Gilmar D.Santos ----- Mauro ----- Orlando ----- Oreco -----------Zito --------------------- Didi Garrincha ----- Vava ----- Quarentinha ----- Canhoteiro Subs: Castilho; De Sordi, Bellini; Dino Sani; Indio; Evaristo, Zagalo ARGENTINA World class: Carrizo, Sacchi, Maschio, Grillo, Corbatta, Sivori International class: Dominguez, Ramos Delgado, Navarro, Vairo, Cap, Varacka, O.Rossi, Sanfilippo, Belen Formation: --------------Carrizo Ferreiro ------- Ramos Delgado ------- Vairo -----------Cap ----------- Sacchi ---------------------Maschio Corbatta ----- Sanfilippo ----- Sivori ----- Belen Subs: Dominguez; Gimenez, R.Navarro; Varacka; Grillo; Menendez, Cruz HUNGARY World class: Grosics, Matrai, Kocsis, Tichy, Czibor International class: Sipos, Lantos, Sarosi, Sandor, Palotas, Bencsics, Fenyvessi Formation: ---------------Grosics Matrai ------- Sipos ------- Lantos -------Szojka -------- Berendi ------------------Palotas Sandor ----- Kocsis ----- Tichy ----- Czibor Subs: Henni; Karpati, Sarosi; Kotasz; Bencsics; Machos, Fenyvessi FRANCE World class: Kaelbel, Kopa, Mekloufi, Fontaine, Piantoni, Vincent International class: Remetter, JJ.Marcel, Lerond, Douis, L.Muller, Ujlaki Formation: ---------------Remetter Kaelbel ------- Zitouni ------- Lerond -------Ferrier -------- JJ.Marcel -------------------Kopa Ujlaki ---- Fontaine ---- Piantoni ---- Vincent Subs: Abbes; Wendling, Bieganski; Mahjoub; Y.Douis; Mekloufi, Ben Tifour
Others NTs generations 1958 CZECHOSLOVAKIASchroijf,, Safranek, Popluhar, Novak, Pluskal, Masopust, Dvorak, Borovicka. GERMANY Herkenrath, Stollenwerk, Erhardt, Eckel, Szymaniak, Rahn, Vollmar. SWEDEN Svensson, Bergmark, Gustavsson, Parling, Hamrin, Simonsson, Skoglund, Sandberg. URUGUAY W.Martinez, Santamaria, Trocche, Goncalves, Abaddie, Ambrois, Sasia, Escalada. ENGLAND Armfield, J.Charlton, R.Wilson, Byrne, Robson, Edwards, Haynes, Taylor. SOVIET UNION Yashin, Dubinsky, Maslenkin, Ogonkov, Netto, V.Ivanov, Metreveli, Ilyin. PERU R.Asca, A.Bedoya, G.Delgado, V.Benitez, O.Gomez Sanchez, A.Terry, J.Seminario
I saw you post in comme's thread. I think that G Nordahl should make this list. If we are talking about the whole decade, Kurt Hamrin and Lennart Skoglund should make it too.
I don't considered those players since by the WC 1950: - Gunnar Nordhal had 31 years old. - Nacka Skoglund had 21 years old. - Kurt Hamrin was younger than them. BTW, i considered that Swedish 1950 generation >> 1958 generation.
WC Chile 1962 Top-Ten NTs around 1962 These are the best ELO coefficients between 1961-63: BRAZIL = 2153 USSR = 2013 ARGENTINA = 1980 CZECHOSLOVAKIA = 1976 YUGOSLAVIA = 1961 HUNGARY = 1951 ENGLAND = 1916 SPAIN = 1915 URUGUAY = 1908 GERMANY = 1904 Bonus: CHILE 100 points below.
WC Sweden 1962 Best Generations around 1962 BRAZIL World class: Gilmar, Zito, Garrincha, Pele, Amarildo, Canhoteiro International class: Djalma Dias, Orlando, Zozimo, Dino Sani, Mengalvio, Jair Costa, Vava, Quarentinha, Evaristo, Chinezinho, Pepe Formation: ------------------Gilmar Paulinho ----- Brito ----- Orlando ----- Altair -----------Zito ------------- Mengalvio Garrincha ----- Quarentinha ----- Pele ----- Amarildo Subs: Veludo; Zozimo, Oreco; Dino Sani; Moacir; Vava, Canhoteiro ARGENTINA World class: Sacchi, Marzolini, Rattin, Maschio, Corbatta, Artime, Sivori International class: Roma, Dominguez, Madinabeytia, Ramos Delgado, Navarro, Griffa, Varacka, Cap, De Buorgoing, Sanfilippo, E.Onega, Angelillo Formation: --------------------------- Roma Ferreiro ----- Ramos Delgado ----- Sacchi ----- Marzolini ---------- Rattin ---------------- Maschio Corbatta ------ Artime ------ Sivori ------ Angelillo Subs: Dominguez; Simeone, Griffa; Varacka; E.Onega; De Buorgoing, Sanfilippo SOVIET UNION World class: Yashin, Voronin, V.Ivanov, Metreveli, Streltsov, Meskhi International class: Ponomarev, Dubinsky, Chokheli, Ogonkov, Ostrovsky, Afonin, Sabo, Chislenko, Ponedelnik, Khusainov Formation: ----------------------- Yashin Ponomarev ------- Shustikov ------- Ogonkov ---------- Voronin ------------- Afonin ----------------------- V.Ivanov Metreveli ----- Ponedelnik ----- Streltsov ----- Meskhi Subs: Maslachenko; Dubinsky, Manoshin; Sabo; Mamykin; Chislenko, Gusarov YUGOSLAVIA World class: Beara, Vasovic, Sekularac, Jerkovic, Milos Milutinovic International class: Radenkovic, Durkovic, Markovic, Jusufi, Krstic, Popovic, Zambata, Galic, Mujic Formation: --------------------- Beara Durkovic --------- Vasovic --------- Jusufi ---------- Krstic -------------- Popovic --------------------- Sekularac Milutinovic ----- Jerkovic ----- Galic ----- Mujic Subs: Radenkovic; Kovacevic, Markovic; Perusic; Matus; Cebinac, Liposinovic.
Others NTs generations around 1962 CZECHOSLOVAKIA: Schroijf, Lala, Popluhar, Kvasnak, Scherer, Pospichal, Molnar, Zikan HUNGARY: Matrai, Sipos, Sarosi, Solymossi, Tichy, Bencsics, Gorocs, Rakosi, Fenyvessi SPAIN: Rivilla, Olivella, Reija, Zoco, Verges, Del Sol, Amancio, E.Martinez, Suarez, Peiro, Gento, Collar, Lapetra ENGLAND: Armfield, Cohen, J.Charlton, Wilson, Robson, Edwards, Flowers, Haynes, Douglas, Greaves, B.Charlton GERMANY: Tilkowski, Schulz, Schnellinger, Szymaniak, Haller, Seeler, Brulls URUGUAY: Trocche, Cococho Alvarez, Caetano, Goncalves, Ambrois, Cubilla, Sasia .
WC England 1966 Top-Ten NTs around 1966 These are the best ELO coefficients for NTs between 1965-67: ENGLAND = 2041 GERMANY = 2017 USSR = 1998 ARGENTINA = 1988 BRAZIL = 1979 PORTUGAL= 1961 HUNGARY = 1953 ITALY = 1943 SPAIN = 1866 URUGUAY = 1855 Biggest dissapointment for WC participation --> Brazil & Italy
WC England 1966 Best Generations around 1966 BRAZIL World class: Carlos Alberto, Gerson, Ademir da Guia, Pele, Amarildo International class: Manga, Djalma Dias, Roberto Dias, Piazza, Mengalvio, Jair Costa, Canario, Coutinho Formation: ------------------Manga C.Alberto ----- Brito ----- R.Dias ----- Rildo ------- Piazza --------------- Gerson Jair C ----- Coutinho ----- Pele ----- Amarildo Subs: Felix; Djalma Dias,Everaldo; Lima; Ademir da Guia; Canario, Machado da Silva ARGENTINA World class: Perfumo, Marzolini, Rattin, Artime, Angelillo, E.Onega, Veron International class: Roma, Albretch, Pastoriza, A.Gonzalez, Bernao Formation: ------------------------ Roma Malbernat ------- Perfumo ------- Albretch ------- Marzolini -------- Rattin --------------------- A.Gonzalez Bernao ------- Artime ------- E.Onega ------- Veron Subs: Andrada; Griffa, Rosl; Telch; Pastoriza; Angelillo, Fischer ENGLAND World class: Banks, Moore, Greaves, B.Charlton International class: Cohen, Newton, Hunter, Cooper, Stiles, Lee, Hurst, Peters Formation: ---------------------- Banks Cohen ------- Hunter ------- Moore ------- Cooper ----------------------- Stiles ---------- Greaves ------------ B.Charlton Connelly ------------- Hurst --------------- Peters Subs: Springett; Newton, Labone; Mullery; Eastham; Lee, Hunt WEST GERMANY World class: Schulz, Schnellinger, Haller, Overath, Seeler International class: Tilkowski, Hottges, Weber, Brulls, Libuda, Held Formation: ---------------------- Tilkowski Hottges ------ Weber ------ Schulz ------ Schnellinger --------------------- Sieloff ----------- Haller -------------- Overath Libuda ------------- Seeler --------------- Held Subs: Bernard; Nowak, Fichtel; Giesemann; Brulls; Strehl, Lohr
Others NTs generations around 1966 SOVIET UNION: Shesternev, Afonin, Voronin, Sabo, Streltsov, Chislenko, Ponedelnik, Meskhi HUNGARY: Szentmihalyi, Meszoly, Solymosi, Gorocs, Rakosi, Bene, Albert, Farkas SPAIN: Rivilla, Olivella, Gallego, Zoco, Adelardo, Peiro, Amancio, Lapetra PORTUGAL: Jose Carlos, Hilario, Graca, Jose Augusto, Eusebio, Simoes ITALY: Albertosi, Burgnich, Rosato, Salvadore, Facchetti, Trapattoni, Mazzola, Rivera, Domenghini, Altafini, Riva URUGUAY: Ubiña, Matosas, Cococho Alvarez, Pavoni, Cortes, Goncalves, Rocha, Cubilla
Resume for pre-WC era: Generation around OG LONDON 08 England = 2017 Denmark = 1865 Argentine = 1835 Scotland = 1744 Generation around OG STOCKHOLM 12 England = 2033 Denmark = 1927 Holland = 1938 Argentine = 1808 Generation around OG AMBERES 20 Uruguay = 1906 Denmark = 1914 England = 1891 Belgium = 1856 Generation around OG PARIS 24 Uruguay = 1972 Spain = 1902 Argentine = 1860 Scotland = 1849 Generation around OG AMSTERDAM 28 Uruguay = 2035 Argentine = 1989 Spain = 1922 Scotland = 1922 Comments: * At pre-WWI era, England was devastating force (professional and amateur sides) * Denmark was also, main non-british squad at that time: 2 silver medals at OG. Unbeated by non-british sides. First non-british NT who beat England (amateur side) * In SA, Argentina was the best team. * After WWI, Scotland became best british side: won more British championship and had outstanding players. * Uruguay was the most succesful SA team since the beginnings from Copa America, and extended his reign winning 2 OGs. * From continental euro teams, Spain was the most consistent side. They also, were first non-british nation to beat England. .