I always wanted to have this discussion. Out there on various platforms , most fans would blindly chose Zidane even without doing much research on Platini , because of recency bias or because a lot of them (like me )started watching football when zidane had his best world cup performance which probably clouds a lot of judgements . However this platform has lot of people who saw both the players during their prime years i guess, and are actually have decent amount of knowledge about players from older generations in many cases. So , i would like to know , who was the best French Player ever /50years (considering there isn't enough footages of Kopa) ? I would appreciate to hear some good reasonings (primarily footballing reasons like their skillsets and what they brought onto the field rather than just team success or things like that) behind the pick.
Would like to hear from @PDG1978 @Vegan10 @leadleader @babaorum @PuckVanHeel @Tropeiro @msioux75 @Estel @peterhrt etc who i believe have decent amount of knowledge on this discussion.
Although they were both true football geniuses, I would vote for Michel Platini and I would opt for him thanks to his scoring ability, something that Zinedine Zidane did not have. Technically both were two great players, each one will have his opinion of who was better in this aspect (for me Zidane a little better) but in scoring ability Platini is well above Zidane. In addition, Platini was the top scorer in Serie A in the 80s when that league was the most difficult in the world to score goals as the defenses were very strong. In terms of championships won, I think both are even at club level and Zidane clearly wins in national teams for his 1998 World Cup, but the exhibition that Platini gave in the 1984 Eurocup is one of the best by a player in the history of the great tournaments of selections (at the level of Maradona in Mexico-86). In short, two great players but my vote would go to Michel Platini. For the third place of best French the thing I suppose would be between Raymond Kopa and Thierry Henry.
I would say Zidane was superior in a few areas of the game - ball control, ball-retention, dribbling (even though one should not under-estimate Platini's ability in those areas). Zidane was also physically stronger. Both had approximately the same longevity at the highest level - perhaps a bit longer for Zidane (1994-06) than for Platini (1976-86) but Platini had clearly a higher (and longer) 'absolute peak' (hard to say... but I would say 1977-78 then from 1980 to 1985...). In the other areas of the game Platini was better IMHO - goalscoring (naturally), passing, leadership on and off the field (I think he was one of the greatest captain ever), consistency and versatility (he was quite unique in the sense that he could play 'a la Pirlo' while being a world-class goalscorer at the same time).
I think if I have to try to call it then I also go with Platini as a better/greater player by a small margin, and it is hard to be definitive about it when talking of perhaps two of the top dozen all-time players. I would agree with babaorum that Zidane had the more astonishing ball control and manipulation, and so he was the harder to dispossess in general. He'd have the edge for balance and also probably for two-sidedness I think. Platini though seems to be more decisive, more regularly, and probably with a greater influence on the gameplay, except when Zidane was in some sort of 'God mode' maybe. Even though Zidane could come up with some impressive goals at significant times, Platini surely had the better goal sense and efficiency in taking chances, with as babaorum says a role that was that of a playmaker still. Zidane could pass very well, but I think it's fair to say Platini has the advantage there indeed, with the long range balls to team-mates but also great ability with shorter finesse passes.
I suppose the most consensual choice would still be Kopa. A bit off-subject but where would Benzema rank ? I dislike the guy but his club carreer is awesome and basically above everyone else's. I'd probably still take Henry above him but not that much above him. Too bad there was that story with Deschamps and the NT... He could have ended as the greatest French striker ever (some think he is... waiting for Mbappé surpassing everyone ).
Yeah, Zidane had a sublime left-foot. He could also play more on the side as a kind of left midfielder whereas Platini was a more 'vertical' player.
There does not seem to be much to choose between these two and Kopa. All high class. Platini's free-kicks might edge it for him. He was also more consistent than Zidane who sometimes gave the impression of saving himself for big games. Kopa was probably more versatile than either. Post-playing careers should not be taken into account here but they do affect reputations. Zidane's has been enhanced by successful management, Platini's tarnished by scandal in senior administration. Henry, like Vieira, is rated more highly in England than in France. Benzema is another whose off-field issues have not done his reputation any favours. He would no doubt be held in higher esteem had he been a member of France's 2018 World Cup winning team.
I would favor Zidane if the stakes are high for a penalty or free kick. Platini took a few more penalties in his career (not as many as Baggio or Maradona) but Zidane has a dozen at the most difficult circumstances and they all went in. For example the penalty after the Portugal brawl in 2000. It had a delay of two or three minutes with many heated players around. In general Platini was a vastly better free kick taker but again, Zidane has some that won the game in the last minutes. One could on the other hand say three league titles and one CL in ten years for Juventus and Real Madrid is slightly below par - invariably there is also a lot he didn't win while playing for big teams. Thus not all last minute free kicks hit the jackpot. Penalties though are a different matter. Unless I'm mistaken he converted them all. I think this was another small thing he was better at and this ability delivered him a couple more trophies or finals played.
I was very surprised to read about in the 'Sacre Blue' book Zidane is the only French manager active in a top four league. Not only is he successful, he is since Wenger also the only one to be in management.
Yes, Zidane is the only current one - unless you count his assistant David Bettoni and Chelsea youth coach Makélélé. Claude Puel (sacked by Leicester in February 2019) just outlasted Wenger.
Zidane missed 4 penalties in his carreer - 2 in Serie A, 1 in Liga and 1 with France vs China prior to WC06. He scored a total of 12. That's not a very good ratio. But yes, he put the important ones in the net. Platini scored 26 PKs (not a large number indeed) and missed two - 1 in Serie A in 1983 and 1 vs Brazil in WC86. Platini also scored some vital free-kicks - vs the Netherlands in 81 (WC82 qualifiers), vs Spain in EC84 final (with a bit of luck) and vs Yugoslavia in 85 (WC86 qualifiers). This said I agree with you - Zidane had that ability to elevate his game in clutch moments. Perhaps a bit more than Platini indeed.
I think the lack of continental success by French clubs (other than PSG) is a factor here. This will greatly help in launching careers and reputations. It's the same for all the Benelux managers of the past. Success with national team can also open doors, but only with a more expansive style or less stacked generations of players. Elite clubs don't want managers who sit deep and/or regularly play with two defensive midfielders. I think Zidane his managerial career will also put the 2006 World Cup campaign (including the qualification) in a different light, since the actual manager Domenech is nowadays seen as totally inept. These numbers don't include penalty shoot-outs. Zidane has as far as I know a perfect score there as well. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Henry is not a particularly loved figure in France but he's rated quite high - somewhere between the 4th (at best) and 8th (at worse) in France's all-time list, depending on each one preferences. I'd pick him around the 5th or 6th place, probably. I'd pick Thuram ahead of him.
I counted the WC98 1/4 final penalty shoot-outs... but I forgot the EC96 one vs Czech Republic indeed, which he scored. Did I miss others ? For his clubs ? I can't remember right now, sorry.
Deschamps has been linked with the Chelsea job in the past and would probably do well. Platini was a decent coach for the French NT but never managed a club as far as I know.
Laurent Blanc looked like he could do well in the past. He did well with Bordeaux but was somewhat a disapointment later (not completetly his fault - every PSG manager fails to deliver)
Peak Zidane>platini during his short window as objectively the best player in the world (Serie A 1999/00+Euro 2000) zidane was a considerably superior dribbler than platini That is to the point of absolutely no comparison This has to be emphasised and re-emphasize https://www.skysports.com/football/news/2213328/zidane-set-to-be-a-real-smash One could make the case that in his own way zidane was as equally influential in Euro 2000 as Michel platini was in Euro 1984. Zidane being more of a conducter,dribbler and ball progessor Platini scored at least 5 of his 9 goals in Euro 1984 playing as the nominal CF for France I read this somewhere and will try find the source Counter to this is the almost immediate effect Platini had on his teams The win percentage in his favour Its been overdone now with 50 threads on the same subject Id say Outside of his short window as BPITW zidane had extremely patchy spells just to put it lightly More than any generational great i can think of(tragic cases aside like George Best and ronaldinho who imploded) This is 1996/97 if im not mistaken(@Perú FC ranks him as one of the better performers in Europe that season How he reaches this conclusion i still dont know) Maybe zidanes real peak never got the credit it deserved (in the 2000 the headbutt vs Hamburg didnt help his ballon dor case)that could be an interesting theory In the same way Cristianos real peak never got the credit it deserved(2010 and 2014) With ATG match ratings during lengthy spells For me International Career(overall) Zidane > Platini League career(overall) Platini>zidane European cup competitions(overall) Platini > zidane Peak Peak league campaign Zidane 2000/01 > Platini 1983/84 Peak European cup campaign Zidane 2001/02 =platini 1984/85 Peak international tournament Zidane Euro 2000=Platini Euro 1984 It could be Platini over zidane by a millimetre It could be but this requires more in-depth investigation and analysis If Platini was so dominant why wasnt his reflected in his DBS calcio scores Or maybe that is a BS source? Ive made the case for Platini being a remarkable goalscorer especially if compared to some of his semi contemporaries Michel platini Serie A 1983/84 17 goals in 2448 minutes 0.61 goals per 90 Van basten Serie A 1988/89 Serie A 16 non penalty goals in 2919 minutes 0.49 goals per 90 Marco van basten 1989/90 Serie A 14 non penalty goals in 2330 minutes 0.54 goals per 90 Marco van basten 1990/91 Serie A 8 non penalty goals in 2755 minutes 0.26 non penalty goals per 90 Marco van basten 1991/92 serie A 16 non penalty goals in 2665 minutes 0.54 non penalty goals per 90 Or even from 12/13 years later Ronaldo de lima 1997/98 serie A 19 non penalty goals in 2872 minutes 0.59 goals per 90 These are all peak versions of the aforementioned players Peak Marco van basten was one of the greatest finishers of all time which should by further extension apply to Platini If Platini moves from the realms of one of the best scoring midfielders in history to one of the best ever scorers period than that could in theory change the complexion of the GOAT argument. I for for one do not accept that is the case(Platini being so good but rather van bastens/R9s finishing abilities being overstated) Can anyone seriously believe that platini at his peak scored at a higher rate per 90 in serie A than 2 of the best strikers of the last 30 years and he did so playing from a zone not to different from didi/pirlo If you accept that line of reasoning than youd have to believe platini was in a whole different league of greatness compared to those players Its like pirlo or xavi outscoring peak Cristiano Ronaldo in the league? An impossible scenario Would anyone have any doubt who was better How good was platini as a finisher is a very interesting topic Depending on your perspective he could be as good as some of the best strikers in history(his cinversuin or just a very good goalscoring AM In both scenarios he was a more dangerous than zizou in and around the box Maybe zidane had a better shot(could work the goalkeeper more)but that's it Zidane>platini Peak,Dribbling,ball carrying, ball distribution/passing,ball retention,clutchness/mentality,inventiveness Platini >zidane Leadership,finishing,vision(final ball),longevity(number of world class seasons and not length of playing career)
I don't get your point here. It's not a matter of believing that he scored at a higher rate than major strikers of his era (or of other areas) - it's a fact. Being -arguably- the greatest goalscoring midfielder ever makes you de facto one of the best goalscorer ever as a whole if you're able to score at similar or higher rates than well-established world-class strikers. Or is it that you don't believe he played in a zone similar to Didi/Pirlo/Xavi ? I'd say his average position was a bit higher, quite similar to Zidane's one actually. The key point is that he moved a lot (vertically speaking), playing sometimes at a very deep position (his 'extreme' position being right ahead of the backline... typically he played that way a lot with France before Giresse came in) or more often as a classical 10, or rather unusually as a striker or 2nd striker (EC84 is a bit a of an exception here as he effectively played up-front more than he ever did... he could do that because Giresse took the playmaking role). His typical way to score was surging from the midfield and picking-up the defensive backline, which he effectively did better than -arguably- any other midfielder in the history (depending on the position you consider Di Stefano was playing).
When is Zidane's peak for you? And how would you evaluate Zidane's club career. I've seen people seem to criticize Zidane's club career. Real Madrid Galacticos project was a failure and i've seen people say Figo upstaged zidane regularly during their time at Real. And some people seems to say Zidane was in a way linked with Juventus' struggle in the Serie A in the latter 3 years of his Juve career. Then there are guys like this who posts things like this. Would like to hear your opinion on it . From 10 years in Serie A and La Liga, the number of consistently good seasons Zinedine Zidane had is 2 at the most, and quite possibly 0. https://t.co/kmO6NcinNA— Michael Cox (@Zonal_Marking) July 30, 2018 Also, i doubt whether was he actually a no 10 like many people believe. His stats especially at Juventus seems just very low for a no 10 (even if i consider the context of the era , where top teams used to score less goals) . It seems his assists for first four seasons at Juve were 2,5,3,3 I saw somewhere that zidane was criticized by Italian media for failing to become the main man of the team, when Del Piero was injured( Can't find the source now though). I think someone like you can provide a good idea
I think @Estel (if he's still around) would be the best for answering in detail to this. My opinion is that his peak years were in 1997-98 and then between 2000 and 2003. The "issue" with Zidane is that his influence in the game is not always shown by his stats, which may seem indeed somewhat subpar. I mean that he was involved in quite a considerable amount of goals that he neither scored himself of assisted. I calculated his goal-involvement for France NT some years ago and I found that he had a large number of pre-assists or secondary assists - whatever you call it- which are simply not counted. I'll try to find them again when I have time. I think it's another difference with Platini, whose goal-involvement was more direct and visible. This said, I don't completely disagree with the fact that he could have done more sometimes. I think in particular he could have scored more goals with his successive clubs. I mean, his gpg ratio at club ratio don't match his gpg ratio with the national team. I tend to agree that Zidane was sometimes a bit frustrating to watch (at club level, not so much with France, with which he was more often than not at his full potential).
Its self explanatory Van basten/R9 cannot be as good as originally thought if at their peak they are being outscored on a per 90 basis by a player whos zone of influence was comparable to zinedine zidane They cannot be Its like kocsis at his peak being outscored in a league format by bozsic Its like Cristiano Ronaldo being outscored at his peak in a league format by Paul scholes or Luca modric Its like Samuel etoo at his peak being outscored in a league format by Deco Its like Lionel messi at his peak being outscored in a league format by xavi Hernandez These are not farfetched analogies I disagree the greatest goalscoring midfielder of all time is by extension or default one of the absolute best goalscorers of all time Franz beckenbaur was arguably the best dribbling defensive player of all time with his surging runs and overlaps from deep Would one find his name on any list pertaining to the best overall dribblers ever? I don't think so The best goalscorers of all time generally have minimum 500 goals just to qualify for the conversation R9 and van basten did not score that many for one Secondly what they could've done without career defining injuries is pure conjecture and speculation Thirdly at their respective peaks playing in the same league( for Milan and inter) they couldn't match the non penalty goal rate of a player(platini) whos zone of influence was comparable to didi Its more acceptable to me that R9/van basten were overrated than Platini being underrated Its not just that Platini outscored those players His non penalty goals in Serie A 1983/84 were of infinitely higher quality than any of the league goals scored by van basten in serie A And he merged that with considerably more playmaking aswell
Not to divert the thread, but on the flip side Van Basten did have 13 assists by Trachta's calculations (or his sources calculations) in 91/92 overall (not only Serie A to be fair): It's not a direct comparison to use Serie A only for Platini, but he only had 4 (though also 9 'pre-assists' I calculated myself): Yeah, using Trachta's table that I helped with it's 10 assists in all comps anyway.... I still feel Platini was arguably the best passer of all-time so to make a contrary statement lol maybe it's not that I feel he's overrated on that basis, but maybe Van Basten could be underrated! I think an often cited argument is that Serie A defences of the time used to focus on blocking out attackers (often by foul means) and gave more space and time to midfielders in the build up (but that doesn't detract from Platini's scoring prowess a lot I guess as when he advanced he still had to evade the blanket defence tactics himself by finding space, picking the right moments to make runs etc).