Greatest European footballers In football history

I was insinuating that you may be using assists and pre-assists, to represent the entirety of participatory actions in an attacking sequence, including, but not limited to:

1) Heavily deflected non-OPTA assists.
2) Passes that require one or more rebounds from the teammate to be converted into a goal.
3) Penalties and freekicks drawn through fouls, that later got converted.
4) Deflections that end up as own-goals.
5) Shot rebounds from the player himself.
6) Passes that precede all of the above scenarios, that might be interpreted as pre-assists for some.

Now I do not particularly mind these more loose definitions, but I think it is basically impossible to have such tallies for all players for the purposes of comparative analysis, which means that you might be sifting through the evidence for to pick up any loosely associated attacking sequence involvement for players you personally researched, then comparing the figures to tallies that were collected in a much conservative manner for other players.

That alone is a huge problem, as strictly consistent and thorough numbers can cause misdirection without proper context and understanding of the confounding variables.
To add extra sampling inconsistenices to the numbers, it becomes next to impossible to interpret proper meaning.

Until you have clarified how you have reached those figures for both players, and your general process, it becomes extremely difficult to digest and make sense of the numbers for readers such as myself.

Also, there is the issue of completeness. It personally is a difficult for me to believe you can isolate 300 separate instances of Cruyff providing a pre-assist, either with a written descriptive source, or video footage. Is there a possibility of you are extrapolating off smaller sample sizes?

These are just questions I have. I have no doubt that you can find multiple instances of mistakes or inconsistencies from the references I've mentioned, but I was asking more curious about your own approach.

 

I could bet that Cristiano has more pre-assists than Cruyff.
But we must also consider that in Cruyff's era, many players just ran forward and attempted lots of crazy long-range shots, they didn't seek as many passing combinations as in modern football.
Of course, without a doubt, Cruyff generates more "pre-assists" per game than Cristiano, but their total numbers in their careers could be very similar.

 

Good Point Of view yours

on this moment ...


When i'm doing this ... comparing the professional metrics of all the possible players ...
My main goal is who was
the most Total Player or Total Footballer ... or was a much more complete player ..at all .

well .. on my view !


Cruyff 1974 World -Cup

vs

C. Ronaldo 2016 euro-Cup

 

I already said it before. Ronaldo were generally present when Real Madrid started counter attacks. As soon as they won the ball they passed to him and he linked up with Benzema and Bale. He pre assisted a lot of his own goals and goals from Benzema. Like Vini Jr nowdays, as soon as real Madrid get the ball they pass to Vini and strikers begin to run. Ronaldo were even more often involved in his ManUtd days. Even at Juve he had to drop deeper because of lack of midfield service

 

I've been thinking about pre-assists recently, and I think it is reliant on a number of factors:

1) Player position within the pitch

It might be rare for a target-striker to have the pre-assists figures of a central midfielder or central attacking midfielder, case in point, Joshua Kimmich versus Robert Lewandowski for Bayern Munich. From the limited sample size, midfielders such as Joshua Kimmich, David Silva, Dani Parejo, and Marco Verratti, seem to be represented better as a general rule of thumb.

[OC] The players with the most Pre-Assists (=hockey assist or secondary assist) in the Top-5-Leagues in Europe 2017/18 - 2022/23 : r/soccer

I'll use the estimated figures for non-OPTA pre-assists, using the manipulation of the FBREF data used in the above thread.

(Goal-creating actions via passes during open-play + Goal-creating actions via passes during dead-ball scenarios) - (Assists)

Joshua Kimmich (2017/2018 ~ 2021/2022): 53 "pre-assists" (wider definition than OPTA)
Robert Lewandowski (2017/2018 ~ 2021/2022): 22 "pre-assists" (wider definition than OPTA)

I think technically speaking, Robert Lewandowski is very tidy with the ball, but his role and function does not allow massive numbers of pre-assists. A player that stays further upfield, winning aerial duels, manipulating the opponent's enemy line with his movements without the ball, cannot always be involved as the trigger in attacking sequences. Especially if they are aerial targets, because it is possible to be involved in one-two passes as a dribbler, but iniating those attacking sequences, then running into the box to receive the aerial ball sounds ridiculous, even in theory.

2) Player tendency on the pitch

Even amongst players of a similar position, playing in the same league, with similar sample of overall play time, and perhaps similar overall value, their willingness to be involved in sequences may play a large role.

For example Martin Odegaard and Bruno Fernandes from 2020/2021 onwards have contrasting styles for me, with Martin Odegaard more comfortable being involved in deeper areas of the pitch with the ball at his feet.

Martin Odegaard (2020/2021 ~ 2024/2025): 39 "pre-assists" (wider definition than OPTA)
Bruno Fernandes (2020/2021 ~ 2024/2025): 30 "pre-assists" (wider definition than OPTA)

Even amongst forwards, Vinicius Junior has less of these "pre-assists" than less direct, and more link-up dependent forward in Jadon Sancho. Of course, their circumstances, and league strength may vary, but the numbers are vastly different.

3) Team playing style





As alluded by Trachta10, teams that play a lot of passes per sequence, with higher possession, will tend to have players with higher number of pre-assists, compared to more direct teams. If there were pre-assists statistics for Xavi, for example, due to his position on the pitch, and playstyle of his team at the time, he might have very impressive pre-assists numbers.

It is difficult to find passes per sequence statistics for Cristiano Ronaldo's teams (in terms of their style compared to the rest of the league), and next to impossible for Johan Cruyff. However, it does seem like Real Madrid during 2015/2016 to 2017/2018, maybe did not prioritize long, intricate sequences to the degree of Manchester City.



Given these contexts, I think pre-assists is a metric that is better suited for a player that is comfortable with the ball, likes to link-up a lot with his teammates, plays a little deeper to initiate sequences rather than roaming behind the enemy lines, does not get involved in winning aerial balls inside the box, and finally plays in a team that has a lot of possession and plays with a lot of intricate attacking sequences that are trained and practiced in nature, rather than being explosive, chaotic, and more direct.

I think context goes both ways, if Johan Cruyff is disadvantaged in terms of a lack of opportunity to be involved in pass-heavy sequences due to the team set up, we have to look into the aerial duel counts inside the box, how many forward roams they did without the ball, and how many matches they were given the duty to stay further upfield.

 

Goal creating actions doesn't include pre assists man. A goal creating action is any action which precedes a goal. Be it a pass or a dribble, etc..

 

Which is why you limit it to passes, there are subdivisions of goal-creating actions such as take-ons, fouls drawn, shots that lead to rebounds, and interceptions that later lead to goals.

If you limit the count to goal-creating actions that are strictly passes, whether they are from open-play, or during dead-ball scenarios, and then take-away assists from that, you get a very rough estimate of a non-OPTA pre-assist tally.

That's how I understood it, anyways.

8 - The most 'secondary assists' in Europe's top five divisions this season, where a player makes the pass to the player who then assists the goal:

8 | Julian Brandt
8 | Thiago Alcântara
8 | Sergio Busquets
8 | Jadon Sancho
8 | Trent Alexander-Arnold

Foreshadow. pic.twitter.com/wAUb5zFniJ

— OptaJoe (@OptaJoe) March 18, 2020

Jadon Sancho is listed by OPTA as being one of the forerunners for the most "secondary assists" mid-way into the 2019/2020 season

The Bundesliga homepage, who tend to have wider definitions for actions such as assists than OPTA, also lists Jadon Sancho as the premier pre-assist provider for that season.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.bu...sancho-thiago-brandt-stindl-baku-hockey-12045

If you use the FBREF numbers, for Jadon Sancho for that particular season:

28 GCA from passes (labelled as PassLive and PassDead) - 16 assists = 12 pre-assists

Something about the definitions, whether they are more lenient with the deflections, or whatever the reason is, almost alwaus leads to bigger numbers than OPTA provides, but the estimates are roughly in the same ballpark, and since the standards are the same for every player that has data since the 2017/2018 season, it is as good a way to judge general tendencies and trends as any.

It is why I said sequence-dependent players such as Jadon Sancho, will have more pre-assists than more direct and solo-istic players like Vinicius Junior.

 

That isn't a comparison;

Cristiano Ronaldo is the last complete T10 OAT.

Cristiano Ronaldo in 2016 arguably showed elite level of goalscoring (arguably), and thats about it. Cruyff showed elite level of dribbling/ball carrying (in the way Cristiano Ronaldo never showed in his life) and elite level of playmaking (Cristiano never showed anything relatively close in his life either); It is a one-man competition.

People would say passing, dribbling and goalscoring doesn't define football, but I think yes they define, off-the-ball abilities all players had and it is hard to proper measure the players, so on-ball value, value actions, yes it is pretty much it outside of defending... and Cristiano Ronaldo doesn't come remotely close, in fact two different worlds.

Best tournament of Cristiano Ronaldo is 2012 Euro by far, that is his peak with his NT and it is far away compared with other greats of this sport.

 

I haven't followed the whole conversation. What do you mean by this? That would be a very narrow and impractical definition of "elite" to exclude Ronaldo from the club of elite goalscorers in 2016 or even seasons beyond 2016.

 

You're the best lol

 

I know it's not world cup but he scored a hat trick against the #1 club at elo football.com



Rating 2.22 above his teammates

His hat trick in the world cup final also were against the #1 at fifa ranking and he were like 2 ratings above his teammates also

 

Okay what about his hat trick in the world cup final against #1 elo NT?

https://eloratings.net/Argentina

1.65 SofaScore rating above his teammates

 

Serious question: what do you have against Mbappé?

 

Okay so let's pretend it were a hat trick against eibar and he were playing for 13/14 Real Madrid

 

I disagree totally this



before ;;;1994/1995 simply ...don't have this Ranking ESM Team of the Season


1994–95[2]

..... Vítor Baía

.......... Paolo Maldini
.......... Matthias Sammer
....... Frank Rijkaard
.......... Danny Blind

Gianfranco Zola
Jari Litmanen
Michael Laudrup

Iván Zamorano
Alan Shearer
Jürgen Klinsmann






so .... you don't takes it in count ....completely ...



players..

as Zito
Zagallo
Didi
Clodoaldo
Van Hanegem
Netzer
Overath

etc;;etc..etc...


yes ... I agree with Claude Makelele ..on Kevin de Bruyne's qualities and skills

from being better than Ronaldinho Gaucho as a complete better player ...




but ...

you ...have forgetten in the past players ...

as
like most people of his generation...

half-retarded audience who follows football only through highlights at You Tube



although you...

have a knowledge above average of these mentally retarded people...of the internet nowadays

that's it my friend . "!

 

I think "passing ability" goes far beyond the delivery of a final ball. Anyway, Pep is eulogizing another player he is unceremoniously kicking out of the team. I remember the "We cannoh replace him" about Aguero as well. These sort of interviews are hardly a meaningful gauge of his opinion.

 

the Kevin De Bruyne ... won What for Belgium National Team Side til today == equals nothing ???????


no, I'm not


no, I'm not

putting de Bruyne in the same sentence...

I put him so far below the players you've mentioned right now



Zito the captain ...Mario Jorge Wolf Zagallo ...Didi ...Garrincha ... Clodoaldo ...Ruud Gullit ...Van Basten ...Michel PLatini ...Van Hanegem...Overath ...Netzer ... Lothar Matthaus ...etc.etc..etc ...
Hidegkuti ...Zizinho...Ronald Koeman ..Rijkaard ...
RH 5 József Bozsik (c etc, etc..etc ...

 

¨66 Matches .....


only played ...


it that Gullit ..
he didn't give a ******** or a shit

to the Dutch national team and the Dutch Football Association

because they didn't hire Johann Cruyff as HeadCoach or Manager of the National Team
after Euro-Cup 1988 .....

like He said ...on interview .... ..Rijkaard ...and Van Basten ...
they harm in that decisive game against West Germany ... Rijkaard's red card ,,...and Van Basten very very bad into that game .in 1990 ... I've played well against West Germany ..




Belgium 109 Matches ....