What about Caldere, Buyo and Zubizarreta, am shocked by those omissions Shouldn't it be called the Butragueno/Hierro generation? Remember "La Quinta del Buitre". Add Salinas, Sacristan, Otero and Sergi to the list as well.
Toni Prats may be worth mentioning as keeper, he was there playing great during Sevilla's rise during the 00s. I would add Arbeloa and Mata to this group.
Some suggestions: Defender José Parra Jose Gonzalvo II Controller Antonio Silva Creator Luis Molowny btw, I think the generations around early 20s and early 30s weren't so far from this one.
first of replace rep with van hanegem next to cruyff the secodn best ever duthc player.. so its cruyff, krol, van hanegem, neeskens vs rijkaard, van basten, gullit, koeman 4 players who played on tiotally different positions you cannot comapre cruyff with van basten. not even rijkaard with neeskens. rijkaard was a DM and neeskens was a box to box player last but not least krol should be ranked way way above koeman.. he was overall better defender..
I had trouble finding enough players to make it worth my time to make a 20/30 generation. There were some great ones (Zamora, Samitier, Quincoces) but low numbers overall.
The controller is Alfonso Silva a highly regarded half/inside forward. Parra was arguably the best defender from his generation. And Molowny arguably the best spanish player from his generation. Both were born in 1925 and great omissions, imho. I'll check and try a spanish pre-war generation.
The Zamora/Regueiro generation is from 1901 to 1908 Finisher Luis Regueiro Gaspar Rubio Creator Josep Samitier Ramón Lafuente Marti Ventolrá Chirri Vincent Piera Controller Francisco Gamborena Martín Marculeta Defender Jacinto Quincocés Manuel Anatol (french intl) Ciriaco Errasti Felix Quesada Goalkeeper Ricardo Zamora This generation lacks depth in keepers, finishers and controllers (here, also a top talent), but their exponents are solid players. Regueiro is an underrated player, arguably the best spanish attacker in the 30s. Some players were closer as Paulino Alcantara, Agustin Sancho, Rene Petit, Pedro Vallana, Guillermo Gorostiza, Ramón Zabalo, José Muguerza, Isidro Lángara, José Iraragorri, Leonardo Cilaurren, Simón Lecue.
I did not know Parra and Molowny had such big profiles. Why were there cap totals so low? Was Molowny really on the level of Barosa and Zarra?
For a Madridista, I think he is. Of course, both Basora and Zarra shined at WC and had a better NT career being rated among the better in their roles In the case of Molowny, in his Inside Forward role he had more competition, but he was the better spanish IF, the more skilled with a good goalscoring ratio.
Here, I have to admit that my memory fails me Checking for more details, Molowny was a good to very good player, and in the Ramon Melcon's magazine series about old players, he rated him as one of the most skilled forwards from his generation. He also had a selection about the best IFs overall (Cesar and Panizo). I guess, that info and some reports in the Once's thread about Di Stefano, confuse me.
Hans van Breukelen was maybe also world class for a little while. World Cup 1990 previews named him among the 5 best goalkeepers around. There was a video on youtube, now deleted, that mentioned him in both the BBC and German TV preview. No kiddin'. Personally I don't think he was particularly talented, an opinion many share in Netherlands, but he was on the radar. As for Neeskens; I agree with your opinion but I can understand the one of Pipiolo as well because I've seen columns of that time stating this. He was occasionally flamboyant with his play; at the 1974WC he performed two or three times a skill that we would now call a "seal dribble". You can watch it yourself. I can pick out some more things too. You see Danny Blind as a defensive minded libero?? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Football_Elo_Ratings#Strongest_teams_since_the_mid_to_late_1960s
Those four played together at the national team but of course not at the club level (for a Dutch club). Between 1987 and 1993 (which covers this generation) the Dutch clubs reached a few finals (and semi-finals). Of course, at that time also Portuguese and Belgian clubs reached an odd number of finals, but for the most part this was achieved without the 'big four' stars and some others. And someone like Koeman played the latter part of the 1987-88 treble season with a broken foot, clearly not at his full powers. Although some players (something like a dozen) found their way to abroad, most stayed in their own league. Actually, it was reported that the prominent role of the Milan players made it harder for other Dutch players, of required quality, to find a place in Italy. It was in no one's interest to see too many players from the same nationality (esp. small ones) fill up the foreigner slots. For the most part, only the top dozen or so players made it to abroad (some like Kieft tried it in France as well, and others even in Portugal). Others, like Gerald Vanenburg, signed a lifetime contract at PSV and regretted later that he had never moved to Italy (but his agent thought the Milan players were stealing the show too much). If you consider the career successes of the top end stars (e.g. Koeman as all-time topscorer among defenders) plus the results of the Dutch clubs, then the depth is maybe not that much worse as the one from the 1970s. Purely results wise.
Well talking of all the Hollands/Netherland teams no teams had posed a fearsome to opponents like the "total football team of early 70's of Cruyff" Netherland of 90s (94 and 98) were also very very good (twice were eliminated by Brazil after a hard fought game)
danny blind was an allround centerback. he was more of a stopper when he formed a legendary duo with rijkaard. but he was always comfortable on the ball, never clearing in panic. he would move forward if the play demanded it. not because it was his imperative. at the end of his career he was topscorer at the beginning of the season, mostly because the team played too static and blind stepped up as a captain to make a point. i am not sure who to compare blind with. laurent blanc comes to mind, although blanc was taller and had better dribbling. but they were equally calm and concentrated and were able to move forward responsibly. some see blanc as a libero, although he didn't always move forward, nor did blind.
I agree with that. He was a 'normal' sweeper. Not particularly offensive but also not very defensive. It reflects the system he played in for most of his career: an offensive system but because he was (on paper) the deepest defender in a (on paper) three-men defence he had to watch his steps. Maybe it's just semantics but when someone says 'defensive sweeper' then I think about rugged defender in a cattenaccio-based system. Early in his Ajax days he was a left back. At the 1988 Cup Winners Cup final he was rapidly exposed when he played within a completely improvised backline (Verlaat as RB was inexperienced - that's where Mechelen their goal became created - and LB P. Larsson only played 14 matches that season). The sweeper role was not yet his default position I think and he saw a straight red card for denying a goalscoring opportunity at the 16th minute. In the subsequent years he made that role his own (at that time the 'denying goalscoring opportunity' rule wasn't consistently enforced too IMHO; not as straightforward as it is now. Examples from the 1990 and 1994 World Cups spring to mind). I saw this video on YT (the last 'goal' is of course from a penalty shoot-out)
For 'open play' attack/defence balance playing style Blanc is a good comparison, I agree. It has to be noted though that Blanc was a real scoring threat due to his offensive heading capabilities and strength at 'dead ball' situations. At Napoli in 1991-92 he scored all six league goals as a result of a set piece situation, where he capitalized on a well-struck assist. He also took a penalty kick once in a while, which Blind rarely did. If we look at Blanc his most prolific seasons as a sweeper (where he played after 1989-90), then it are these ones. 1990-91 (Montpellier) 38 games, 14 goals (7PK) 1994-95 (ASSE) 37 games, 13 goals (9PK) 1997-98 (Marseille) 31 games, 11 goals (5PK) 1991-92 (Napoli) 31 games, 6 goals (0PK) 1993-94 (ASSE) 33 games, 5 goals (0PK) 2000-01 (Inter) 33 games, 3 goals (0PK) 1999-00 (Inter) 34 games, 3 goals (0PK) Spoiler (Move your mouse to the spoiler area to reveal the content) Show Spoiler Hide Spoiler The World's 80 most successful Top Division Goal Scorers among the defensive Players of all time by IFFHS 1. Ronald Koeman Nederland 533 1980 - 1997 193 2. Daniel Alberto Passarella Argentina 451 1974 - 1989 134 3. Fernando Hierro España 541 1987 - 2005 110 4. Egardo Bauza Argentina 499 1977 - 1992 108 5. Paul Breitner Deutschland 369 1970 - 1983 103 6. Laurent Blanc France 500 1987 - 2003 95 7. José Rafael Albrecht Argentina 506 1960 - 1977 95 8. Gary Lloyd Wales 515 1992 - 2009 90 9. Frank Sauzée France 483 1983 - 2002 89 10. Juan Domingo Antonio Rocchia Argentina 396 1970 - 1983 86 11. Derk Schneider Nederland 451 1965 - 1983 80 12. Bernard Dietz Deutschland 495 1970 - 1987 77 13. Adriaan Mansveld Nederland 505 1964 - 1982 77 14. Manfred Kaltz Deutschland 594 1971 - 1990 77 15. Enzo Héctor Trossero Argentina 518 1972 - 1987 76 16. Edson Tortolero Venezuela 439 1988 - 2006 75 17. Antoine Cuisard France 312 1944 - 1959 74 18. Eric Van Meir Belgique 327 1986 - 2002 74 19. Bojil Kolev Bulgaria 373 1967 - 1981 74 20. Bruno Pezzey Österreich 498 1973 - 1990 73 21. John Froggatt England 290 1947 - 1958 72 22. Roberto Carlos Da Silva Brasil 642 1993 - 2011 71 23. Ivan Hasek Československo 265 1981 - 1998 70 24. James Cardona Colombia 462 1986 - 2001 69 25. Hans-Peter Briegel Deutschland 346 1975 - 1988 68 26. Robert Murdoch Scotland 383 1959 - 1975 68 27. Humberto Manuel Jesus Coelho Portugal 419 1968 - 1983 68 28. Holger Fach Deutschland 416 1986 - 1998 67 29. Franz Beckenbauer Deutschland 556 1965 - 1983 67 30. Siniša Mihajlović Jugoslavija 427 1988 - 2006 66 31. Hans-Jürgen Dörner DDR 292 1969 - 1986 65 32. Evagoras Christofi Cyprus 321 1978 - 1999 65 33. Héctor Chumpitaz Perú 456 1964 - 1983 65 34. Ramiz Mammadov Azerbaijan 285 1992 - 2005 64 35. Gheorghe Popescu România 472 1984 - 2003 64 36. Jozef Chovanec Československo 416 1978 - 1995 63 37. Wilbur Cush Northern Ireland 1948 - 1969 63 38. Stuart Pearce England 495 1983 - 2000 63 39. Willi Neuberger Deutschland 520 1966 - 1983 63 40. Samir Zulić Slovenija 231 1991 - 2000 62 41. Jean Prouff France 244 1938 - 1952 62 42. Wilfried Hannes Deutschland 309 1975 - 1988 62 43. Jean-Jacques Marcel France 417 1949 - 1964 62 44. Andreas Brehme Deutschland 441 1981 - 1997 62 45. Murray Barnes Australia 234 1977 - 1987 60 46. Heiko Peschke DDR 288 1981 - 1996 59 47. Frank Leboeuf France 389 1988 - 2005 59 48. Giacinto Facchetti Italia 476 1960 - 1978 59 49. Roberto Luis Trotta Argentina 477 1986 - 2005 59 50. Charalambos Pittas Cyprus 403 1985 - 2000 58 51. Heribert Weber Österreich 578 1973 - 1994 58 52. Gerardo Gómes Australia 302 1979 - 1994 57 53. Rainer Bonhof Deutschland 311 1970 - 1980 57 54. Pedro Daniel Barrios Delgado Uruguay 341 1988 - 1998 57 55. Dan Vasile Petrescu România 404 1985 - 2002 57 56. Ricardo Elbio Pavoni Uruguay 421 1965 - 1976 57 57. Leopold Lainer Österreich 511 1978 - 1997 57 58. Francis McLintock Scotland 610 1959 - 1977 57 59. Dominique Bathanay France 388 1973 - 1985 56 60. Valentin Ştefan România 217 1991 - 2000 55 61. Christian Ziege Deutschland 326 1990 - 2005 55 62. Horst-Dieter Höttges Deutschland 420 1964 - 1978 55 63. Jean-François Domergue France 445 1975 - 1990 55 64. Alan Hunter Australia 337 1983 - 1997 54 65. Claes Cronqvist Sverige 338 1966 - 1980 54 66. Stanley Lynn England 365 1950 - 1965 54 67. Manoel Rezende de Matos Cabral »Nelinho« Brasil 238 1973 - 1987 53 68. Erwin Hermandung Deutschland 290 1967 - 1977 53 69. Wilmer Cabreara Colombia 411 1985 - 1999 53 70. Corneliu Dinu România 454 1966 - 1983 53 71. Jorge Mario Olguín Argentina 529 1971 - 1988 53 72. Karim Mohammed Alawi Iraq 317 1979 - 1995 52 73. Martin Lippens Belgique 232 1954 - 1964 52 74. Germán Castellanos Colombia 354 1961 - 1973 52 75. Klaus Augenthaler Deutschland 404 1977 - 1991 52 76. Octavian Grigore România 441 1982 - 2000 52 77. Jean-Pierre Mertl Luxembourg 316 1949 - 1967 51 78. Martin Kree Deutschland 401 1983 - 1998 51 79. Lorenzo Ju Loren España 422 1984 - 1999 51 80. Helmut Kremers Deutschland 273 1967 - 1980 50 N.B. Blind has 45 goals in 537 first division games, and thus misses out
are you sure that all of his 6 goals came from indirect set piece situations? i'm doing an ongoing study on this type of specialist defender. when i studied blanc's case, a few years back, i noticed that he scored many goals from the penalty spot as well as open play, in situations where blanc simply moved up the pitch and put in the final touch(es). a few goals came from indirect set pieces. but not enough to put him in the same league as sergio ramos, john terry, marcelo balboa etc. the youtube videos i used as reference are mysteriously removed. as i only watched several club seasons of blanc, i still don't have a complete picture of him. if your source describes it, could it still be that blanc falls in the 0.1 goal per game from indirect set pieces category?
I believe you about the other seasons but I checked this one some while back because 6 goals as a defender in the Serie A of that time (without penalties) was a lot. Do you remember at which clubs he was particularly creative with his scoring and dribbling? Anyway, here are the 6 goals. 1:41 - corner kick, deflection, tap in 1:10 and 1:45 - two corner kicks, two headers 0:35 - corner kick, header 1:05 - corner kick, cross from the edge of the box, header (not a bad Rijkaard goal too btw) 0:35 - corner kick, header In 5 of the 6 goals Zola was involved I believe.
well, apart from his early years as attacking midfielder, blanc had his best years at internazionale. i recall people mentioning the "rivival of blanc", which also refers to him failing at barcelona. blanc was never a dribbler a la beckenbauer, but i do remember a truely glorious zidane-like pirouette right in his own penalty box. all of manchester was going crazy. and that was not because they felt blanc made the right decision. unfortunately, this fragment is nowhere to be found (deleted by the FA in order to conserve english football culture; ) i found his most famous goal: some fancy misses:
Next I wan to move on to Scotland but I am having a hard time identifying there top players especially in 1910-1950 when there sometimes strange selection policies for the national team, which means cap totals that are not very informative of a players quality. There are the obvious attacking names from the 20s for instance Gallacher, James, Jackson, McGrory etc but beyond that, especially at defender and controller it is hard to identify there top players. I would love some input from the posters with more comprehensive knowledge of Scottish football (@lanman, @frasermc etc). At this point it was hard to even decide what years make the best generation since I do not have a very good idea of player quality outside of some of the big name players. I will start out by posting a preliminary list for a whole decade. First is all players born in the 1890s. Finisher Hughie Ferguson Bobby Parker Andy Cunningham James Reid Jimmy McColl Andy Wilson Creator Alan Morton Sandy Archibald Tommy Cairns Controller Jimmy McMullan William Cringan David Steele Defender Jock Hutton Willie McStay Goalkeeper Jimmy Brownlie Bill Harper I am really unsure about what order the strikers should be in or if these are the relevant one for the period. Wilson has one of the best international careers but an average club career. Cunningham has a huge trophy cabinet and more caps than most on the list. Ferguson, Reid, and McColl all have great club records. Morton is an obvious name. Archibald and Cairns were Morton's teammates and received most of the caps at their positions but I am unsure of their quality. McMullan seems like the dominant halfback of the time and I am pretty unsure about the defenders and keepers. I would love some input on missing players, the players listed relative merits in comparison to one another, and how the top players were rated relatively to their British counterparts or ever in Europe (I know players like Morton were well known and highly rated outside of Scotland, do other players rise to that level?). This was a relatively successful period for Scotland internationally. A lot of these players were part of the great run in the 1920s were I believe the team was thought of as one of the best in the world.
You bring up some very good points, Puck. Plus, the national team in this period was certainly strong as well. They won the 88 Euro of course, and although they didn't win it, you could easily say they were the best team of the 92 Euro as well. Even in that disappointing 1990 WC performance I strongly believe they would have won the entire thing had the gotten by West Germany. That game was by far their best game in the tournament. Gullit was rounding back into form as well, and a win over Germany certainly would have boosted morale. I remember Beckenbauer famously approached Benhakker before the game, saying: "Leo, I'm going to tell you something. The one who wins this game will be the champion." And at the press conference after the match, Beckenbauer followed up on his prediction: "Now watch me. Now we will be the champion. And if you had won this match, you would have been World Champions."