My apology in return for labeling you a troll. I am mistaken in my assumption for why you posted those articles.
You're too much Andy. And you, the one who always goes off on people who put words in your mouth or quote you out of context. This is just like the SI cover debate: I gave a reasoned opinion backed not only by facts, but facts that I urged you to look up. But you don't seem to think that there is another valid opinion other than yours. As to this post, how utterly sad-not to mention the hypocrisy, as your the first to knock those who have the USA chip on their shoulders, and here you are sounding like an abused child. Do you even enjoy soccer, or like many Red Sox fans, share a kind morbid love-have relationship with sport? My points for the record should taken in the context of this article. I tend to side with a lot of its points. But to the larger points of this post of yours: 1. Why is it such a sin on Big Soccer to even suggest that perhaps we are not as good as our WC results showed; that perhaps the rest of the field came back to us a bit; that maybe there was some truth to the fact that some of the European teams were fatigued? And yes it's true that other teams benefit from luck, but you still need to answer the larger question of our quality. The idea that you're troll for even whispering these ideas on this site is very sad, really. 2.As I said in an previous post, yes you don't give Mexico or another C.A. country any extra advantage when they play here, but that doesn't mean you can't question what doing so means in the larger picture? Are we creating mental crutch of sorts for the Nats? (And it's a fair question to ask re: Mexico and the Azteca. But if we, "shouldn't have to be like the Europeans," do we have to be like the Mexicans?) Are we sending the wrong message to potential MLS fans? You can agree or disagree, but to say that to even ask these questions is taboo...well, I've been called a lot worse than a troll, so I'll survive. 3. Lastly re: the writer's points about MLS producing players, he raises valid points IMO. If you look at this team, even with the new blood, it still falls within the 94-2002 WC as a group. Perhaps this group (as happens in many soccer power nations) has seen its run through-that the MLS players on the 2002 are not really a sign that the we have stepped up a notch. He could be wrong yes, but this US group may be a Poland circa the 1980's. And don't forget, the soccer world doesn't operate in a vacuum-and the world is sure not going to a) take the US lightly anymore for the short time being and b) you can be assured that with the next WC in Europe, those nations are going to be primed and ready. Which brings us to the question of MLS and how responsible the league will be in feeding the USMNT. Can it fill that role? Will we need to skip to a generation of teens developed in Europe? These are the questions that IMO (I can still have one, yes?) this article raises in its knock on Garber and MLS-not your silly rants. The fact that people are quick to site Oliver, Trecker, or me as trolls or US soccer-haters simply show a lack of maturity as well as an awful lot of knee-jerk jingosim-which I have empathy for to a point, but is still there all the same.
Reality Check: 1. MLS is 5 1/2 seasons old. The fact that ANY of the US players on a WC team that reached the quarters were developed in MLS is quite an accomplishment. I'll leave the "world class" semantics to someone else. 2. Don Garber is pitching a young league to potential investors. Did the jerk who wrote this piece of trash ever see Bud Selig at work? Or Pete Rozelle? The article is a hack job, an op-ed piece whose author is obviously very impressed with his own opinion.
Re: Re: great article on MLS & Garber.... Comments like that is why having an actual debate on BS is a waste of time. Where and when did I ever mention .. A) hating the MLS or B) ever mentioning one thing about the MFL .... sir you may keep your black ass to yourself.
Funny the more I read this thread, the more you see the utter hypocrisy and really, knee-jerked jingosim displayed by so many American BS posters. Early in the article he writes Now go to the Revs board or MetroStars board. Are all of the knocks about how Kraft has run the team all lies now? And the Metros-where do we begin? And Kenn, you of all people who's actually worked in the business, who has made god-knows-how-many keystrokes on your keyboard, telling all of us that many of the MLS teams know zilch in terms of marketing and are not run well. So is it a matter of keeping our dirty laundry in the family? Or does the sniff of a possible accent make everyone deaf to anythiing that might be critical of MLS? Throw in the fact that one I/O almost has the league to himself, (not to mention the whole concept of single-entity), that two teams have folded, that a match that draws under 10K really isn't a shocking outcome (right, time to whip out the "Worst Day For An MLS Match" chart, in order to see if the data predicted such an outcome ). Really, is there a reason why people in media shouldn't be skeptical about the league? And on this point re: This has actually happend. After the World Cup, Garber started making the rounds, and was asked about the state of MLS-especailly the playoff format where in two interviews I heard/read (one in print and one on WFAN here in NYC) it was knocked pretty hard as a joke of a system. And rightly so-spare me the "economics" argument. That doesn't change the fact that we are stuck with it. And that's why I think articles like this are actually good-whatever flaws it may have: the US soccer fan is stuck with an awful lot a "stuff"-bad stuff. We are still paying customers; we have right to voice an opinion about the product. It's too easy, to much of a cop-out by the US soccer community to say, it's only the voice of the so called Eurosnobs or US-haters. Too many people on these boards shout-down people who sound a critical voice at MLS. And the reason: "Do you want to see MLS fail Ray?" "Do you want to kill soccer in the US?" And that's just wrong, as it places an unfair burden on the fan vis-a-vis the survival and growth of the league. Where's the league's role-where is their responsibilty? And I'll ask this question again: why is MLS not subject to the same fan-performance dynamic as the rest of US sport? Maybe all of the empty seats we see are not the result of Eurosnobs or Hispanics turning away from a US brand of soccer, but Americans who have sampled the product and said, "thanks, but no thanks."
I hope I'm not a hypocrite in your estimation.... Well, to be honest, what I think most of those keystrokes have been about (unfortunately they were lost in The Crash) was that most of the people on Bigsoccer know zilch in terms of marketing and couldn't organize a trip to the rest room, much less a sports team or league. I don't think I've been very vocal about MLS marketing for a while. I think there are some very smart people in the league and at many of the teams, and I think there are some people in charge in some places who probably shouldn't be where they are and making the decisions that they are. But pontificating about it on a message board isn't going to change anything. It's too early in the morning for my thought processes to go any deeper than that right now. Maybe after some caffeine.
When he used the phrase "ugliest of toothless crones," do you think that was skepticism? To me, that goes far beyond skepticism. I wouldn't have emailed him that he's a moron (hey, it was one of the choices!!) if he had been "skeptical."
Real Ray, you have convinced me. Let's fold up shop and concentrate on basketball You won't find anyone who thinks that US Soccer at all levels has been a flawless, well-oiled machine over the past 20-30 years, however, you have to look at where we are now in a historical context. In 1989, we struggled to sell out St. Louis Soccer Park (6,500 seats I think) for a WC qualifier against El Salvador that could have put us into our first WC in 40 years. (Of course we didn't qualify and had to take care of business in T&T). Now we bitch and moan when 8,000 show up on a Wednesday league game. You are correct about the management in NE and NY, but I for one never expected all teams to be run by competent management. You have to weigh those against Chicago, Dallas and others who run very good organizations. There is nothing wrong with being critical of the league and the teams, but true "supporters" of both should balance the criticisms with recognition of good work and accomplishments. The original point of the article was to rip Garber a new one for being a cheerleader for US Soccer. I see no point in that at all -- that is his job. Finally, to the points about our progress producing players, I think you have to look at DMB, Donovan, Mastroeni et al (new MLS players at this past cup) in comparisson to Deering, Maissenouve, Burns, Hejduk et al from 98. But the analysis doesn't stop there. Now look forward to Ed Johnson, Edson Buddle, Kelly Gray, Kyle Martino, Mike Magee et al. There is reason for optimism that our showing at '02 was not just a blip on the screen, but genuine progress. Can US Soccer screw it up so that we flop in '06? sure. The same way that Holland and Yugoslavia and Scotland tanked this time around. It happens. Most importantly, the league is still here. They should trumpet their successes, and listen to the criticism to make a stronger league in the future. However, to counter essentially a marketing speech with an equally biased look at everything that is wrong under the guise of journalism is what has many on here screaming foul.
I think there are plenty of valid opinions out there and have learned a ton on Big Soccer. Look at how many times that Kenn and I have disagreed and yet I think we both appreciate each others views. You just seem put out that I continually point out that your opinions (like Olivers and JRI's) are garbage IMO. You may look up to Oliver and JRI as hero's but I don't. I think they are sad individuals who never give a balanced opinion on anything. If something goes wrong in US soccer, they are happy. If something goes right, they have to find a way to prove that the US is doing something that the rest of the world is not. If you wish to be lumped in with them, that is your choice not mine. Just don't feel bad when 100 people tell you that your opinions are out of whack and play then you are forced to play the "well why can't I have an opinion too" cry baby card. Andy
This point can not be stressed enough and which is why the article holds no water. This should be the final word on the matter. Very well written Chris M.! Andy
How can you possibly ask this with the literally 10's of thousands of posts people have made with legitimate complaints about MLS? If you think that fact that I have not seen a single MLS game live in Gillette stadium this year puts me in the group of people that would say ""Do you want to see MLS fail Ray?", then you are sadly, and grossly mistaken. You seem to be confusing having legitimate complaints with that joke of an article. This thread started with the article being praised as being intelligent and as numerous (everyone but 2 in fact) people have pointed out, the article if full of crap. There are (unfortunately), many many intelligent, well-balanced, concerns one can make about MLS. Not a single one was included in the article IMO because the basis of the complaints were against Garber doing what he is paid to do during a state of the league address. People on Big Soccer certainly will attack a person who does not present well balanced views ESPECIALLY if those views are tipped entirely to the negative side. It has been that way since rec.sport.misc It has been that way since rec.sport.soccer It has been that way since NAS It has been that way since soccerboards.com It will continue in that way on Big Soccer Like it or not, if people present unbalanced views that are spun to be made to look rediculously negative, people will rightly slam them. Big Soccer will rarely if ever slam an entirely positive article, but to be fair, I am not sure one has ever been written Andy
I agree completely with Andy and Kenn on this one. I hope this is not one of those signs of the impending apocalypse. Garber does a great job of being a Major League commissioner for a league that is trapped in the netherworld between Major and Minor. The continual stick that folks like Paul Gardner give Garber for "not being a soccer guy" is specious. Sure, he didn't pay his dues in soccer, but after three years, he is now as much a soccer guy as anyone else.
former MLS players abroad "but until they've proven themselves on a weekly basis in a top European league" This quote got me thinking about successful MLS transfers to Europe (in a rather non judgmental way). If being a Eurosnob means believing that the big 4 European leagues are a higher quality than MLS than I am, but that is not really what I want to discuss, I just don't want to be called one in the future. Anyway here is what my rather limited brain can come up with for loan/transfers. I'd like to restrict this to player who were developed mainly in MLS for which MLS got a fee or allowed said player to leave on free transfer or after a contract (i.e. No LD) Stern John (Nottingham Forrest, currently Birmingham City EPL) Frankie Hedjuk (BL04 now St. Gallen Switzerland) Tony Sanneh (Hertha now FCN) Successful loans (rumors of wanting to buy) Brian McBride (PNE) Ben Olsen (Forrest) Unsuccessful loan: Dema Kovalenko (St. Pauli) Rumors of being wanted: McBride Mathis DMB Free Agents: Jamar Beasley (Italy somewhere?) Mike Duhaney (Mainz05) others? I know this is a bit of a change in direction, maybe a moderator can help me out if it should be a different thread or posted on the Yanks Abroad board. just idle wondering d
This is not being a Euro snob, this is being a person with an IQ above 10. A Euro snob will look down at anything and everything having to do with US soccer. I can't remember if these were free transfers or if MLS picked up some cash (I believe they picked up some cash for Bartlett). I won't get into the argument of who developed where though. Shaun Bartlett Brad Friedel Joe Max Moore Greg Vanney Ian Fueur (??)
I guess I'd like to limit it to players MLS almost exclusively developed. Friedel spent only a short time in MLS (after Galatasaray IIRC). Did Moore have European time before coming back. Although if you are arguing Moore's development was mainly the result of MLS, I can't say. I would think Friedels time was mostly just killing time before moving to greener pastures, but I could be wrong. Vanney was doing very well at Bastia last year. And Bartlett I think would count as well. and I guess we can throw in Marcus Hahnemann Eddie Lewis Anyway, many of these guys are on the bench. What I'm looking for is a way to try to quantify the level of MLS relative to some of the other leagues. I would put Vanney, Sanneh, John into a successful move, Hejduk, Moore, into a middle catagory, and the attempt by Kovalenko a disaster. d
As I stated, I am specifically not arguing who developed where because it is too subjective IMO. Marcus Hahnemann Eddie Lewis both would make sense I think for your criteria. Yes, in Germany Andy
granted. So criteria would be all transfers and the comparison of how players did in MLS compared to where they are now. There also seems to be a phenomena of early success (PT) followed by relegation to the bench. Sanneh at Hertha Moore at Everton I think I've read Vanney has fallen out of favor at Bastia Lewis at Fulham And under the relaxed constraints you can throw in Luis Hernandez. How is he doing in Mexico these days? d
As well as Campos and Hermosillo, although one could argue that they were never really owned by MLS but shared between MLS and MFL Andy
For the record, my recollection of it is that you ripped the sh** out of me about, I don't know, two years ago now? I was wrong about something (TV ratings, probably), I learned from it, and, since I'm about the first one to rip someone when they act like a moron, I figured (eventually) that you have to be able to take it as well. I do appreciate Andy_B's views, for what it's worth. He's the goods. I have no problem with being set straight by him (luckily, I don't think it's happened in a while, has it? ) or some other folks. I do have a problem with certain folks (and we all know who they are) who haven't been here long enough or haven't proven they know what they're talking about to be condescending or a pi**ant. You have to be here a while before you're allowed to be condescending. That being said, Andy_B, would it kill ya to respond to a PM now and then? (We now return you to our original premise, which is that Richard Snowden is an angry little prick with an axe to grind.)
One thing you'll have to account for is that, for the most part, MLS keeps its best players, and sends over its 2nd tier players. I'd put JMM and Stern as exceptions to that. But Sanneh? Surrounded by Pope, Olsen, Etcheverry, Moreno, he was just another guy. Vanney with the Galaxy was like that. Hejduk I would categorize as an MLS star, but not a superstar by any means.