Good Goal? USB? What's the call?

Discussion in 'Referee' started by CDM76, Jul 12, 2012.

  1. CDM76

    CDM76 Member+

    May 9, 2006
    Socal
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The following scenario was posted in "What's the right call?" type column for referees.

    In a U-19 girls game blue #10 is injured inside the red team’s penalty area. Red #3 kicks the ball out of play so that blue #10 can get assistance. When blue #5 is about to take the throw-in, blue #7 asks for the ball, saying, “Here, I’ll give it to the keeper.” Blue #7 gets the ball and then deliberately scores on the red team’s goalkeeper who was expecting to get the ball back.

    I'd appreciate this august body's feedback on the appropriate response.

    If you're familiar with the source, this is not intended to challenge any authority. I just disagree with the application of law here but I would love to get the perspective of my peers (as well as those who actually know something about being a referee).

     
  2. akindc

    akindc Member+

    Jun 22, 2006
    Washington, DC
    In a real game, goal.
    If it's something I'm not being assessed on...oops, it was a bad throw in that I whistled late. No goal, red throw.
     
  3. gosellit

    gosellit BigSoccer Supporter

    May 10, 2005
    Well, the deciding factor would be if you consider blue #7 asking for the ball and saying, “Here, I’ll give it to the keeper.” to be verbally distracting an opponent at the restart.
     
  4. fairplayforlife

    fairplayforlife Member+

    Mar 23, 2011
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Unfortunately, you are never going to sell that to an assessor in an upper level game. It is a good goal and there isn't really anything you can do other than tell the guy to ask for a sub cause you can't protect him from retaliation.
     
    wguynes repped this.
  5. campbed

    campbed Member

    Oct 13, 2006
    New Hampshire, USA
    Assuming that blue.5 executed a proper thow-in to blue.7, who then dribbled in and scored = goal.

    If blue.7 took the throw-in, and it went directly into the goal = goal kick.

    We are not there to prevent players from being jerks within the law.

    If it is a goal, radar is up, and game and player management skills should kick into high gear.
     
  6. SA14mars

    SA14mars Member+

    Jan 3, 2005
    Dallas
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I agree with this. Card the player, indirect kick from the top of the GA. It amounts to a player screaming at the thrower to distract them (which I gave a card for in an adult game earlier this year). This is "bringing the game into disrepute". It should not happen at the higher levels where you would be assessed (e.g. the defenders would likely be more careful).

    Interesting side note - if the thrower had said "I'll give it to the keeper" and his/her teammate fouls it up, then that's a different sorry. Not sure what I would do there.
     
  7. La Rikardo

    La Rikardo Moderator

    May 9, 2011
    nj
    I don't agree at all with the idea of not counting the goal, but even if I did, you can't do this since the "verbal distraction" occurred while the ball was out of play. I suppose you could still caution the player, but the restart would be the throw-in again.
     
  8. Errol V

    Errol V Member+

    Mar 30, 2011
    The scenario provided makes no mention of anything that would be an infringement during the taking of the throw, or otherwise, prior to the goal. Adding those what-ifs and discussing them only serves to cloud the issue. The referee has no standing in the Laws to disallow a goal here.

    This is a third-grader testing the waters of trickery and gamesmanship, and the adults need to be adults and not get their feathers all ruffled about it. The referee should let her coach, parents, or teammates tell her that it was poor sportsmanship (never to be confused with Unsporting Behavior) if they are so inclined.
     
    wguynes repped this.
  9. NHRef

    NHRef Member+

    Apr 7, 2004
    Southern NH
    How is he distracting an opponent, he was talking to his teammate. That is the same as the infamous CK about 'here you come take it" and hte first player puts the ball into play and the second takes off with it.

    Is it slimey? Yup. Is it illegal? Nope

    Either you get "creative" and declare the throw-in illegal in one way or another or you swallow your whistle, award the goal, pull the idiot over and say "dude, hope you're tough, after that stupid stunt, they may be out for your head, and there's not much I can do to protect you until they take it off, then I can call it"
     
    wguynes repped this.
  10. gosellit

    gosellit BigSoccer Supporter

    May 10, 2005
    Yikes...My bad. Just re-read the OP. Was thinking that the statement was made to the opponent taking the throw in.
     
  11. campbed

    campbed Member

    Oct 13, 2006
    New Hampshire, USA
    Now we are just making stuff up? No. Please don't do this.
     
    wguynes repped this.
  12. wguynes

    wguynes Member

    Dec 10, 2010
    Altoona, IA
    Kudos to the poster who correctly identified that poor sportsmanship is not the same as Unsporting Behavior.

    Although this won't stop such occurrences, it's good to [publicly] inform the team with the restart that the opponents are expecting possession to be returned. Hopefully this will embarrass the opponent into compliance. We have no right to, and should not, mandate it.

    After the fact, the referee needs to step up his or her game and be on top of any retaliation that may come.
     
  13. RichM

    RichM Member

    Barcelona
    United States
    Nov 18, 2009
    Meridian, ID
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Seems to dovetail nicely into Jim Allen's latest reply (http://www.askasoccerreferee.com/?p=3641):
     
  14. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    JA and TB tend to be on pretty much the same page . . . and in this case as a referee I fully agree with both of them.

    As a coach if my player pulled the stunt in the OP, she would become acquainted with the bench -- perhaps to the point of violating minimum play requirements . . . and we would let the other team score uncontested from the KO.

    Were I having a say on a board, the stunt hypothesized on JA's site (which is hardly original) would lead me to declaring a forfeit and expelling the coach from the league.
     
    dadman repped this.
  15. SA14mars

    SA14mars Member+

    Jan 3, 2005
    Dallas
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That is a good point about the timing of the offense and the ball being out of play. Clearly restart should still be a throw-in.

    As another poster also commented, I missed this part in the OP.

    Looking at it now I agree there are some flaws in my original opinion, but what are you suggesting I "made up"?


    Bottom line if the player tells the keeper "I'll play it back to you" then shoots and scores that ought to be disciplined. However, since it was said to a teammate it is just like the CK scenario NHref described. Poor sportsmanship is not USB, but blatant deception that is not a part of the game is.
     
    OMGFigo repped this.
  16. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    JA disagrees with you.

    http://www.askasoccerreferee.com/?p=1734
     
  17. jayhonk

    jayhonk Member+

    Oct 9, 2007
    To this perennial chestnut, my answer is the same as it was last time:
    Tweet!!
    "Foul throw."

    I'll skip the editorial, but make a note that this particular situation arose when the Red defender kicks the ball out for a down Blue attacker. How dumb is that?
    Players should let the ref stop the game.
     
  18. gosellit

    gosellit BigSoccer Supporter

    May 10, 2005
    OK, Lets change it just a bit. Player receives the ball from a throw in after an injury stoppage. That player then starts dribbling towards the keeper and says "Hey, I'll pass it back to you," then when the goalkeeper relaxes, he proceeds to take a shot and scores.
    Does this change anything?
     
    OMGFigo repped this.
  19. Errol V

    Errol V Member+

    Mar 30, 2011
    Yes - the referee can't cop out by calling a foul throw.
     
    OMGFigo repped this.
  20. bothways

    bothways Member

    Jun 27, 2009
    please check out

    arsenal vs sheffield utd 1999.
    unfortunately the laws of the game make it a goal, as some of the posters have said. this might be a great thing to think about in terms of a referee- how can I even stop the goal from scoring- perhaps, inadvertent whistle as you see the guy trying to score, then be like, oops my bad, drop ball- and give it to the keeper, hopefully everyone understands. Or hey, handball! In fact, there was an MLS game where this happened where they keeper had the ball thrown to him and immediately the striker pounced on it and interfered. obviously no law issue, but the ref not wanting possible aggro, made up a handball call, and everyone bought it!
    Please do not respond with my last sentence with derision or vitriol!
     
  21. campbed

    campbed Member

    Oct 13, 2006
    New Hampshire, USA
    By making stuff up, I meant your agreement to anything that was not a kick off restart. Full stop.

    Caution on "deception". Players ARE allowed deception, it is part of the game, every game. Feint on a PK, Player A running over the free kick, but Player B taking the kick, "Hey Jimmy, you come take it" trick corner kick play, etc. As JA and others of us have said, this play was against the spirit of the game, NOT against the laws of the game. Ugly as it was, kick off with associated advice above is correct. (as much as all of us want to take the ball out of the net not withstanding)
     
  22. SA14mars

    SA14mars Member+

    Jan 3, 2005
    Dallas
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I know when to admit I'm wrong. Clearly this is one of those times. My apologies folks.
     
    socref79 repped this.
  23. Thezzaruz

    Thezzaruz Member+

    Jun 20, 2011
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Sweden
    This has occurred a few time in top level matches in the last years and interestingly enough it has been stopped by the referee each time (Man U did it in a PL match for example), IIRC the English refereeing community was pretty united in the opinion that it was an illegal deception. Not saying that they are correct but still.
     
  24. NHRef

    NHRef Member+

    Apr 7, 2004
    Southern NH
    If we are thinking the same Man-U incident the ruling on the field wasn't that it was illegal deception, but that Rooney's drag of his foot over the ball, didn't legally put it in play.
     
  25. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Late to the thread, but these posts struck me:

    I think there's a feeling by many, which is odd to me, that upper-level assessors are more likely to be stringent and by the book. I've typically found it to be the exact opposite. Sure, there are black and white things that you just can't get wrong and can't bend. But when it comes down to issues of fundamental fairness, even though the Laws might not explicitly support a course of action, that action might be what's best for the game (as BOTH of the above quotes imply, in fact). And it is our top echelon of assessors, who have reffed at the highest levels in most cases, who know this better than anyone. It is typically lower-level assessors who tend to have more tunnel-vision and rigidly stick to the book.

    Anyway, though not exactly the same, this scenario reminded me of a famous incident from MLS. Either the threads have disappeared, or all my powers of research are failing me at the moment, because I'm absolutely positive this was discussed in the MLS N&A and Referee forums, but I can't find either instance. Anyway, here's a quote from a news article. I know many will recall the incident:

    The match, it appears, was on May 14, 2005. If anyone can find the discussions on this site from them, I think it would make for interesting reading. Because situations like these are not black and white issues. There is a lot of room for creative refereeing--even in our professional first division, by a FIFA referee. Like I said, this wasn't exactly the same (because it doesn't involve verbal issues) but for anyone who remembers the incident, all signs pointed to the ball being played back and that is exactly what Chivas intended to do until one of their players got other ideas.
     
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