Good Decision, Or Not?

Discussion in 'Referee' started by ClevelandFC, Aug 30, 2007.

  1. ClevelandFC

    ClevelandFC Member

    Aug 10, 2004
    I'm going with the "Or Not".

    Ohio HS Boys game. Corner Kick. Player take the kick and drives the ball low and hard about 2-3 yards out in front of the goal. Defensive player hits the ball with his arm and it is redirected immediately on to the chest of an attacking player. The ball flies into the goal. The referee blows the whistle. For a penalty kick!!! Kick promptly put a mile over the goal.

    A few notes --

    - Without exaggeration the ball was driven so hard that the time from the defensive hand ball to the attacking player coming in to contact to the ball going in the net was literally the blink of an eye. The player who got popped in the chest spent a few minutes on the ground getting his wind back.
    - The ref's whistle came a full second or two after the ball was in the goal.
    - The ref had properly (in my mind) played advantage any number of times earlier in the match and delayed the whistle for a second or two to see if an advantage played out. Not this time. The whistle was delayed for some reason and then the advantage taken away.

    So, what's the right decision here? Should it have been a goal? Obviously in my mind it should have. If some measurable/noticeable time had lapsed between the handball and the attacker "playing" the ball then I could see the PK. But I don't see how this is any different than a defender who handles the ball directly into their own goal.
     
  2. njref

    njref Member

    Mar 29, 2003
    New Jersey
    Theoretically, play ends when the referee makes the decision to stop play, not when the whistle is blown. Therefore, (in theory) if the referee immediately decided to end play when handling occurred, a PK is the correct call.

    But the referee should not end play when there is the possibility of advantage. A quick whistle would have been a mistake, he should wait a couple of seconds to see if advantage might develop (which of course it did). Here the referee did not blow the whistle until after play ended, but then he screws the pooch by treating play as ended anyway!

    When the ball goes right into the goal, the referee has received a wonderful gift. He looks brilliant when he treats the goal as advantage and does not award a PK. You don't get any flack for awarding or not awarding a PK. You can use the goal as a solid reason not to hand out a RC for DOGSO, if otherwise warranted. Instead of accepting this gift, the referee blindly treated the play as ended.

    Even if you think to yourself that play is ended, this is definitely one time to keep your thoughts to yourself and allow the goal. Sometimes you just have to know when to shut up.
     
  3. ClevelandFC

    ClevelandFC Member

    Aug 10, 2004
    Thanks njref! Just wanted to make sure I was on the right track. It's over and done with and our guys ended up getting rooked out of a 1-1 tie, but such is life. Honestly we were outplayed and would have been very lucky to come away with a point anyway.

    The ref in question is well known for making herself the center of attention at games. Always being very dramatic when whistling a foul. Very argumentative with players and coaches. I can tell you that a collective groan could be heard (literally, it was sorta funny!) from both sets of fans when she came walking onto the field.

    I had the immediate sense that someone was going to get screwed and unfortunately it was us.
     
  4. ref2coach

    ref2coach Member

    May 27, 2004
    TN, USA
    ClevelandFC was the defender "ejected"? Under NFHS rules, a player who deliberately handles the ball to "attempt" or "successfully" prevent a goal, "shall" be "ejected". So while I do not agree with this referee's interpretation of the "discribed" ball to hand contact, once the referee makes the call the "only" course of action under NFHS rules is to "eject" the defender.

    Sounds to me like the referee in question not only may have made an error in judgment but for sure made an error in application of the "rule set" that the game in question was being played under.
     
  5. IASocFan

    IASocFan Moderator
    Staff Member

    Aug 13, 2000
    IOWA
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Good analysis by njref with a good question from ref2coach.

    Why would a referee want to take the ball out of the goal on such a play? :eek:

    Maybe it was to create issues so she could work on her player/coach management skills. Me, I like a quiet game!
     
  6. USSF REF

    USSF REF Member

    Red Bull NY
    United States
    Nov 6, 2005
    Rochester, NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It sounds as though she pulled the trigger too fast. We've all been there before - you know, you see the hand go up and hit the ball in the penalty area, your eyes get really wide and your vision tunnels in on the offender, you blow the whistle (all of this happens in less than a second) and whoops... I should have been looking at the whole play not just a part of it.

    These situations are to be avoided by referees but they do happen, and usually its the referee thinking they're going to bring justice to the game and do the right thing that gets caught in a situation like this. The problem is, once the whistle goes, you can't undo it.
     
  7. USSF REF

    USSF REF Member

    Red Bull NY
    United States
    Nov 6, 2005
    Rochester, NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I don't think the initial corner kick was heading into the goal at all, based on what was written. Unless I am wrong about that.
     
  8. ClevelandFC

    ClevelandFC Member

    Aug 10, 2004
    You are correct. I don't think it was deliberate by any stretch. It was simply a rocket of a kick (read that as very poor) that caught everyone on both teams off guard. I think the defender was anticipating the ball being played farther out. He started moving in that direction, had to cut back and lost his balance a bit. His arm came up and the ball whacked it.

    And no, the referee did not eject the defender. No caution either.

    The really strange this is that she blew the whistle so fast and THEN waited a good number of seconds before indicating that it was a PK. The team was off celebrating. I would have thought that she would have plenty of time to think clearly and point at the center circle instead of the penalty spot. I guess not...
     
  9. NHRef

    NHRef Member+

    Apr 7, 2004
    Southern NH
    She probably was thinking "oh crap" after she blew the whistle and was trying to find a way out of it. It happens, we've all done it. Saying she screwed the team over, not so true, they got a PK which is the restart for handling in the area, they missed it.

    Should it have gone different? Not for us to decide, she was there only she knows what was going through her head.
     
  10. intechpc

    intechpc Member

    Sep 22, 2005
    West Bend, WI
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I agree with NHRef here, sounds almost like she realized the error and was debating in her own head if there was anyway to allow the goal. I know you said the whistle came after the ball was in the net, but perhaps her perception was that she had blown it before (since she obviously made the decision to blow the whistle before). Just trying to give some benefit of the doubt here, but that'd be my guess on what happened here.

    I'll say that it sounds like she realized her mistake and stuck to what is correct under the LOTG. Perhaps she could have applied a little Law 18 here to let it stand but that could open her up to protests from the other team. Sounds to me like she made the call that she new was unpopular but right in Law. Kinda reminds me of the old addage, two wrongs don't make a right. "Oh crap I made a mistake, well the laws say I must proceed this way so here we go".
     
  11. refereejoe

    refereejoe New Member

    Aug 20, 2007
    Bay Area - Cal North
    Well, I have no idea if the right decisions were made because I wasn't there, but...

    1) Handling is only an offense when done deliberately. From the descriptions here it sounds like it was not necessarily deliberate. The referee clearly thought it was, though.

    2) Referees should never be too quick to whistle in goal-scoring situations unless it is very clear there is no advantage (i.e. a one-on-one takedown on a breakaway). Personally, I always hesitate to blow the whistle against a defender while the ball is still bouncing around in the mixer. I've seen a lot of great goals scored on the followup, eliminating the need to blow the whistle and create controversy in the first place. I've even had an incident where the defender had the attacker in a bear hug for about 4-5 seconds, but the attacker still was able to take his shot and score. Caution to the defender and a good goal, no need to stop play.

    Moral of the story: The art of refereeing isn't so much about knowing when to blow the whistle, as it is about knowing when NOT to blow the whistle.
     
  12. njref

    njref Member

    Mar 29, 2003
    New Jersey
    Well, you say "oh crap" if you blow the whistle Before the ball goes in. After that, as IA said, just leave it in the net, that is a very easy way out!

    And she did screw the attacking team by not giving advantage, which you shoud consider after most fouls. When you deny a clear advantage to a team that deserves it you usually have screwed up. Yeah we all have done it, but that doesn't mean it isn't an error. In this case, according to the facts described, it sounds like one of those "whoops" that had a major effect on the game result.
     
  13. USSF REF

    USSF REF Member

    Red Bull NY
    United States
    Nov 6, 2005
    Rochester, NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    ClevelandFC...

    Was the whistle blown prior to the ball going into the goal or afterwards?
     
  14. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'm sorry, unless that was the smallest field in the history of high school soccer, the player should have gotten his damn arm out of the way. If he wasn't looking, he should have been.

    And to follow up on USSF REF's post, it's funny how alot of Mexican fans think John O'Brien should have been sent off for handling in the US-Mexico game in 2002. DOGSO, they say. Right. :rolleyes: :p :D
     
  15. ref2coach

    ref2coach Member

    May 27, 2004
    TN, USA
    Good catch Steve, I overlooked the player who "took it in the chest"
     
  16. njref

    njref Member

    Mar 29, 2003
    New Jersey
    From Cleveland's original post:

    "- The ref's whistle came a full second or two after the ball was in the goal."

    Normally we manage to blow the whistle first, which is a standard mistake that can't be fixed. Here the referee dug her hole after the whistle.
     
  17. ClevelandFC

    ClevelandFC Member

    Aug 10, 2004
    What he said! It really was the definition of a "bang-bang" play. Literally from the time the defender handled it to the deflection off the attacker to the ball in the net was the blink of an eye. The whistle came a second or two after that and the decision to award the PK came yet another several (3-4?) seconds after the whistle.

    Almost like the referee spent several seconds thinking "OK, take a breath and get this right". And then got it wrong!

    Oh well. Didn't go our way. Good teams get past it. We'll see if this is a turning point in the young season for us. And if so, in which direction.
     
  18. USSF REF

    USSF REF Member

    Red Bull NY
    United States
    Nov 6, 2005
    Rochester, NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Ouch. I don't understand why she would do it that way. Very odd.
     
  19. Yellowshirt

    Yellowshirt New Member

    Aug 21, 2007
    Folks....the question here is was it a good decision to disallow a goal and award a penalty kick.

    I humbly submit that I cannot think of ANY case where this would be a good decision.

    In the case at hand, the referee signalled (whistled) after the ball was in the net, the teams thought a goal had been scored. It matters not if the handling really was a "handball" (how I despise that term!) or not.

    If it was a handball, then allow the advantage and the goal.
    If it was NOT a handball then nothing occurred and it is a goal.

    No matter how you look at it a bad decision was made.
     

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