Not really - Spector has proven to be flexible across the back line, Cygan hasn't on many occasions and yet Wenger continued to play him there when he had options such as Toure to FB and Senderos in the centre with Campbell (not to mention Eboue waiting in the wings)
Shawn Bartlett, Yank or no, is a countervailing example of an MLS failure who is a European success. That is why he is being discussed in this forum. I guess you can't point to any smaller leagues who are actually sending more players to the big 4 leagues than MLS.
I would say: (1) He has to be in shape. The kindof shape he was in Germany after 2-3 months (the famous pic of him showing off his ab muscles) (2) He has to have a new attitude. He can not play at 3/4 speed as if he's the star. We've all see Clint when he in 'on'. He can get there again. If (1) and (2) happen, I think he still has 3 very productive years left in MLS (barring injury). I really don't think its a matter of ability. Although he is somewhat slower than 2001, I think being in great shape/attitude + top level experience can make up for it (mostly)- until that is, a real decline sets in. I honestly don't think a pro athlete declines that much at 29, unless they are out of shape or have attitude problems...32-33 is the 'new' 30 for most athletes
Well, you have to leave them early enough and sober enough to make class the next day (talking about Thursday parties.) In all seriousness, it would have done Maradona some good to think he had some chick picked up, then have a basketball player or football player swoop in and steal her at closing time. Teach him some humility and perspective.
Big 4? Certainly you can, because that means you're leaving off either Germany, France or Holland after you get by the consensus top three of Spain, Italy, England. After those, looking at the numbers and reputations of Czechs shades towards them, though we're close. The portuguese, greek, Ukrainian, Russian, Polish leagues are sending in quite a few. But, given work restrictions for US players, it's not apples to apples. As for Bartlett, he did score 9 goals and add 9 assists in 36 games for the Rapids: http://www.coloradorapids.com/Team/AllTimeStats.asp , which isn't Godlike, but isn't a waste of space.
Let me see if I understand you. Sure you can point to smaller leagues only if you don't make an apples to apples comparision. Since that is what I want, my original answer stands. I guess SFS can't make it or is to lazy to support his musings. Well, I saw him play, so we have a difference of opinion. But he didn't finish his time in MLS with the Rapids, did he? At the end, he was completely unwanted.
Honestly - he wasn't and it wasn't. In fact, the stunning moments he had with Hannover were partly stunning because many of us Metrostars fans thought that part of his game was dead and buried. Maybe metrogo will see this thread and remember better than me, but I think we were waiting for the old Mathis for more than 1 season. He pretty much started coasting from before the start of the World Cup and he was never the same after. Why do you think Zambrano and Bob were pulling out their hair over him, metaphor in Bob's case.
There are some labor restrictions for the Americans but there are also many many leagues that pay much higher salaries than MLS, so the Norwegians or the Danes can make ~ $500-700K in Tippaliga or SAS without having to go to Colaship, whereas Yanks will work for far less. Still, as Ceres pointed out, there are about 60 Danes playing in higher leagues and with better teams. And, as I pointed out to Jägermeister in a recent thread, unlike MLS, small leagues still get their top players transferred for a lot of money. Portugal is a 10M pop country but the likes of Carvalho ($30M), CRonaldo ($20M), Ferreira ($20M), Maniche ($15M) and others are in much demand. The MLS top transfer, not counting a GK Tim Howard, is what, DMB's $2.5M or so? That's pitiful by comparison.
He was the metros leading scorer that year, though, wasn't he? I'll defer to a metro fan on the slide. He was stunning through Feb for Hannover, scoring the types of goals which anyone on Earth would have been proud. I cannot remember the genesis of this debate.
To be completely accurate in this argument, you do have to consider that EU legislation covers 25 nations, so that's a lot of leagues with an apples to oranges comparison with the US. But there are other national leagues _ smaller ones _ with a heavy top Euro league presence. I did mention Ukraine and Russia, however, and should have mentioned Turkey, all with substantial presence in the big four (I include the 1 Bund in that). Others leagues with more players that Americans would include, well, obviously Brazil, but that's not fair because they export hundreds of players, and Argentina (not sure about the overall numbers, their quality has a huge edge). A lot of Senegalese, Cameroonians, Nigerians and South Africans (the African numbers are huge is you include France and Holland in the big groups) around, as is the case with Ghanians and Ivory Coast (ers?), but not sure that's from the league as much as the acadamies. Now, the US
60 is a big number. But we don't know how many Americans would be playing in bigger leagues than Denmark if there were no restrictions on foreigners. As it is, there are 17 Americans playing at levels clearly higher than Denmark. Is work restrictions the difference? It wouldn't surprise me, along with great cultural impediments to movement and the fact that England, the easiest place to adapt to, has the worst work restrictions. Maybe so, but it wasn't the issue raised. You said that some small leagues were going to have alot more guys transfered to the top leagues in Europe than MLS and I wanted to know which leagues you were referring to, not whether Portugal produces more great players than the US. It is pretty clear to me that the only league you are referring to are those that are not subject to work restrictions, making for an inapt and useless comparison. P.S. population, which you raised above, is irrelevant to the issue of whether MLS is a worse selling league than other comparable leagues. Regardless of how many people are in the US, MLS can only sell from their player pool, which is smaller than the Portuguese leage or the Danish league. And with that, Merry Christmas to you.
Those are the kinds of leagues I am looking for, not what SFS is talking about. First, do you have any kind of hard numbers because I am not swayed by your conclusions that countries like Turkey have more, as I just don't know. Secondly, when you start talking about Africa and Latin America other than Brazil and Argentina and Mexico, you have to recognize that the pay is crap and domestic leagues do not pay a living wage as MLS does. Which is why there are like 2 Mexican players in the Big 4 compared to 10+ Americans -- it's because there is less economic incentive to leave the MFL than MLS, not because MLS produces more saleable players. And the same logic is there between MLS and most African and Latin American leagues.
The top teams in Turkey would also pay more than MLS. Edited because I sent prematurely (and isn't that embarassing) I don't know the numbers for Turkey, but they're pretty substantial in Germany. Now, i have no idea if those are Germans of Turkish background or immigrant footballers, but the point that someone is Turkish is made every time someone with a turkish name does something.
Not claiming they don't as that particular argument was limited to parts of Latin America and Africa, which Turkey is not apart of. For Turkey, I don't know how many Turks do play in the Big 4 and how many of those are not subject to foreigner restrictions because they have been resident of or are citizens of a European country.
I just did a quick check, and while it was easy to verify that there are Turkish nationals playing in each of the big four leagues, it is not so easy to find out numbers. And then there are players like the Altintop bros. Are they Turkish citizens, or German citizens, or what? Have they ever actually lived in Turkey? I have no idea. SFS usually knows this sort of thing. Have to admit, i have no idea what this has to do with gooch anymore.
This thread never really was based on much of anything. And it doesn't even relate to the speculative thought of Gooch at Man U. any more. Not sure what the criteria for closing a thread are, but surely this has long since qualified.
You're asserting that just because it's hard to find an exact comparison between leagues - i.e., some variables such as pay scale, work restrictions, etc. will always exist - that no comparison between the leagues is possible. Of course, that is an irrational approach. One could simply account for variables or compare leagues where these variables are similar. For example, the Argentine players faced similar non-EU limitations and yet that didn't stop them from earning big transfer fees and starting jobs with big teams. Or you can look at number of a certain nation's players on the 20 richest teams or on the Champions League teams rosters where work restrictions aren't a tremendous hindrance. As to what this has to do with Gooch - the summary is simple. If you do want to end up with ManU or a CL quality team, would you rather spend your early career in MLS or in Europe?
Man U about to sign defender Vidic to help bolster its defense... http://soccernet.espn.go.com/news/story?id=353127&cc=5739 I guess this ends the gooch to Man U talk for the time being.....
Well, of the 4 Americans currently on Man Utd's books (including Rossi here, even though I don't consider him an American, as he's relevant to this argument), 1 was signed from MLS and 3 were signed from US youth clubs. None played in Europe at all before going to Old Trafford.