Gooch and ManU

Discussion in 'Yanks Abroad' started by Allamerican74, Dec 20, 2005.

  1. OmiKell

    OmiKell New Member

    May 2, 2004
    Tarrytown/Luxemburg
    Before the big wave of anger:

    The first thing I want is USA to win the World Cup.

    But it will be hard if we don't observe with objectivity the problems at the root.
     
  2. MightyMouse

    MightyMouse BigSoccer Supporter

    Jun 19, 2003
    Island paradise east of the mainland
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I agree 100% here, college soccer is the bane of the sport. It really doesn't help those in the college ranks aside from get a bit of recognition. I can't tell you how many college players bomb out in MLS because they can't cut it. Very few can make the jump from college to MLS and do well.
     
  3. DutchFootballRulez

    Jul 15, 2003
    Baltimore, MD
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Well he can't be as bad as Senderos vs. Drogba?
     
  4. DutchFootballRulez

    Jul 15, 2003
    Baltimore, MD
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Highly doubtful, they're still in the Champs Lge. De Jong will want to try to impress Van Basten for the WC. Moving to a new club endangers that.
     
  5. Martin Fischer

    Martin Fischer Member+

    Feb 23, 1999
    Kampala. Uganda
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Perphaps the reason is that there are alot more college players than there are openings in MLS?
     
  6. dcochran

    dcochran Member+

    Feb 17, 1999
    Vero Beach, FL
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    While I agree with the view that it's tough for someone to go to college and still catch up with pros in the better European leagues, I don't think the same is true with MLS. Take a look at the Revs drafts of the past three years and the contribution of college players to the team with the second best record in MLS: Starters: Joseph, Noonan, Parkhurst and Dempsey all drafted out of college. Regular subs: Reilly and Dorman as well. I asked Steve Nicol about this last Spring. His comment was that the college level of coaching and play have both been steadily improving during the past decade.
     
  7. Martin Fischer

    Martin Fischer Member+

    Feb 23, 1999
    Kampala. Uganda
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Really, don't 90% of our guys in Europe have a college background?
     
  8. OmiKell

    OmiKell New Member

    May 2, 2004
    Tarrytown/Luxemburg

    I think we need a new cycle count of our physical inventory here...


    Here are the guys in the European leagues taking part to CL Groups:
    Beasley, DaMarcus Mid/Fwd PSV Eindhoven (Holland)
    Bocanegra, Carlos Defender Fulham (England)
    Casey, Conor Forward Mainz 05 (Germany)
    Cherundolo, Steve Defender Hannover 96 (Germany)
    Cooper, Kenny Forward Manchester United (England)
    Cream, Max Forward Dunfermline Athletic (Scotland)
    Feilhaber, Benny Midfielder Hamburg SV (Am) (Germany)
    Friedel, Brad Goalkeeper Blackburn Rovers (England)
    Gibbs, Cory Defender Feyenoord (Holland)
    Howard, Tim Goalkeeper Manchester United (England)
    Johnson, Jemal Forward Blackburn Rovers (England)
    Keller, Kasey Goalkeeper Borussia Mönchengladbach (Germany)
    McBride, Brian Forward Fulham (England)
    O'Brien, John Def/Mid Den Haag (Holland)
    Onyewu, Oguchi Defender Standard Liege (Belgium)
    Spector, Jonathan Defender Charlton Athletic (England)
    White, Jeremiah Mid/Fwd Gueugnon (France)
     
  9. Sandon Mibut

    Sandon Mibut Member+

    Feb 13, 2001
    There are plenty of players who have gone from college ball directly to playing in Europe.

    Here is a sampling of players currently playing abroad who went straight to European pro soccer from American college soccer. In parenthesis is the number of seasons of college ball they played.

    Conor Casey (2 years)
    Steve Cherundolo (2 years)
    Greg Berhalter (3 years)
    Jay DeMerit (4 years)
    Benny Feilhaber (2 years)
    Rob Friend (4 years)*
    Cory Gibbs (4 years)
    Shaka Hislop (4 years)&
    Vedad Ibisevic (1 year)#
    Kasey Keller (3 years)
    Olivier Occean (4 years)*
    Oguchi Onyewu (2 years)
    Heath Pearce (3 years)
    Claudio Reyna (3 years)
    Robbie Russell (4 years)
    Josh Simpson (3 years)*
    Paul Stalteri (1 year)*
    David Weir (4 years)^

    *Canadian
    &Trinidadian
    #Bosnian; went to HS in US.
    ^Scottish

    Not all these guys are playing in the elite league - many are in Denmark or Norway - but some are in some very good leagues and on some very good teams. Stalteri won a double at Werder Bremen, for instance.

    It can be done. It's hard. But it can be done.

    And, there are plenty more examples of college players who played in MLS first then went on to play in Europe and do very well.
     
  10. dark knight

    dark knight Super Moderator
    Staff Member

    Dec 15, 1999
    Club:
    Leicester City FC
    No personal attacks please.
     
  11. Martin Fischer

    Martin Fischer Member+

    Feb 23, 1999
    Kampala. Uganda
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Seriously, what list is this? It is not a complete list, as it lacks many players? It isn't a CL list as Blackburn, Guegnon, Den Haag certainly are not in it. Dumfermline's youth team hasn't qualified for anything.

    I do concede that 90% of a real list of yanks abroad is too high and the real number is lower.
     
  12. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The counterargument is that Maradona would quite possibly have had a better career if he had spent a year, two TOPS, at a US university going to frat parties, leading his team to NCAA championships, having the discipline to pass enough classes to stay eligible, and playing U-20 and PDL.

    I know it's heresy, but my belief is that there are many soccer players, in the US and outside, who would benefit from spending a year, sometimes two, growing up and getting some damn personal discipline. Some guys are ready to go pro at 17/18, true. Some aren't. I like our system which accounts for both types.

    Would Rooney be such an ass if he'd spent a year at Indiana? Would the personal maturity make up for the mostly-wasted year of development?

    The problem with footballers is the same as the problem with our basketballers. They start getting special treatment at far too young of an age, and it never stops.

    At least in our football, the value of one player is sufficiently low that, for example, Florida State will cut loose a Randy Moss or Adrian McPherson. A coach can enforce discipline within the team, and the university environment does as well (as long as we're not talking Miami or Oklahoma ca. 1987.)

    For every high school to the NBA player like Kevin Garnett and Lebron James who seem to have their heads on straight, you have just as many spoiled-baby Kobes and Kwames, or at least takes-5-years-to-become-great Jermaine O'Neals.
     
  13. sidefootsitter

    sidefootsitter Member+

    Oct 14, 2004
    Vanney? Bartlett? They are considered "successes"?

    And, btw, I am not blaming either. Both players are athletically challenged for top-level soccer. They had done the best with what they had to offer.

    But the fact that a top leagues (EPL/B-liga/LaLiga) are looking at all sorts of smaller leagues for the winter talent replenishment and not MLS tells a part of the story too.
     
  14. Bob Morocco

    Bob Morocco Member+

    Aug 11, 2003
    Billings, MT
    A Mexican would say that MLS is a running league where players aren't skilled enough to hold the ball. Christian Gomez said that his biggest adjustment from Argentina is that you don't have as much time and space in MLS. So what I'm saying is that your points basically go to the style of play in MLS, slower than Europe faster than Latin America. At the beginning of the season Reading's announcer was complaining about the heat, it was 80. MLS games are often played in 100 degree weather, of course MLS is slower.
     
  15. sidefootsitter

    sidefootsitter Member+

    Oct 14, 2004
    Ya, but temp for temp, the Euro leagues are still a lot faster than MLS or MFL.
     
  16. Martin Fischer

    Martin Fischer Member+

    Feb 23, 1999
    Kampala. Uganda
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I won't touch Vanney, but Shawn Bartlett went from a 3 goal MLS season to averaging 15 goals per season in Switzerland (and in the EPL for half a season) over the next 3 seasons. He was a regular starter in the EPL for four and 1/2 years. So yes, he is a success in Europe, at least compared to what he was in MLS -- which was unwanted.

    What "smaller leagues" do you think that the top leagues are looking at instead of MLS?
     
  17. mschofield

    mschofield Member+

    May 16, 2000
    Berlin
    Club:
    Union Berlin
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    I like the idea of athletes attending college, but playing college ball doesn't need to go along with that. Clubs should provide for some academic growth (and some do).
    Still, since when do frat parties teach discipline? ;)
     
  18. Prawn Sandwich

    Oct 1, 2003
    Bhutan
    Or maybe even Senderos vs Doncaster (not sure if you saw/heard what happened in the CC last night but the kid f'ed up big time). Cygan is a passable CB at best - what Wenger has done to the poor guy sticking him in at left back recently is tantamount to destroying a players confidence.

    Thought as much - he wouldn't be a major $ value even now with only 6 months on the contract. If him staying helps keep PSV in the CL for one more round then they're quids in. My guess is that he'll be pressured to sign a pre-contract next month though, will be interesting to see who comes out of the woodwork....
     
  19. jri

    jri Red Card

    Sep 28, 2000
    boca
    Interesting. When Spector (a primarily CB in matches at Man U reserves over 2 years) gets put at LB, its seen as 'a good thing for his development'

    I agree with the general point that playing players out of the position they have trained for CAN have disasterous results...
     
  20. dark knight

    dark knight Super Moderator
    Staff Member

    Dec 15, 1999
    Club:
    Leicester City FC
    Not true - Mathis was well on his decline his last season(s) with the Metrostars -- and was living off the fumes of his amazing pre-WC form. IIRC, even us Mathis fans were glad to see him go.
     
  21. jri

    jri Red Card

    Sep 28, 2000
    boca
    Well, some would say that's debatable. Some would argue he was playing 'not to get hurt', and wasn't trying either (knew he was leaving). Now granted, one can create bad habits that way- and maybe that was the start of Clint's very bad habits.

    IMO, Clint always had mediocre defensive workrate, but it has gotten worse since his return to MLS. His 2 knee operations robbed him of some explosiveness, but the worst thing is really his attitude. I mean, he loafs at Metros for 3/4 year, and gets a big deal at Hannover. He gets in coach's doghouse (and really doesn't try to get out) at Hannover, and then lands a great, guaranteed deal at RSL. Clint hasn't been economically incentivized to produce for a while, and it shows. He's moped/loafed, and been rewarded!

    He probably still has a couple good seasons (at least) in him- if he wants it bad enough. Also, if Clavijo allows him to be out-of-shape, well...yeah, he will be mediocre for sure.
     
  22. Alex_1

    Alex_1 Member

    Mar 29, 2002
    Zürich
    Club:
    Grasshopper Club Zürich
    Nat'l Team:
    Switzerland
    The thing about Mathis is that the clock is beyond ticking for him. I still believe he has a chance siply becuase he's still in his 20's (at least for a little while longer). But once he turns 30...

    I'm hoping he really is working in this offseason and from what I understand he's close to the USA team that is training/in camp. But he really needs to play well wherever he is at the start of the MLS season. It's a big "if", but if he came into the MLS season in great shap, better than his piers, and plays very well it would be hard to justify not giving him a run in at least one friendly.
     
  23. sidefootsitter

    sidefootsitter Member+

    Oct 14, 2004
    ... well, Bartlett ain't a Yank Abroad ... btw, or did he mean Wade Barrett?
    Look at all the transfer rumors ... they're here, there and everywhere.

    FWIW, I'll chime in on Mathis - part of his problems is his fitness (we do recall Lienen's horror at his shape coming in from the summer break), part of it is his mental approach. It's hard to say which part, if any, is due to his knee injuries. If a player neglects his fitness as he approaches 30 (and Clint is 29 already), then the first impacted factor is his speed. For all we know, his knee is in a fine shape at this point. He can't run fast because he doesn't work on that part of his training dutifully.

    But his Hannover failure was due to his personality more than anything. I believe that by the late fall, he was in fine shape and was performing reasonably well. It was his attitude that doomed him.

    Now combine bad attitude and basic lazyness - two fairly constant variables throghout his career - and you get a player that is rapidly on the decline. His contract will keep him in MLS for two more years. After that, his career is probably over.
     
  24. mschofield

    mschofield Member+

    May 16, 2000
    Berlin
    Club:
    Union Berlin
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    I'm not saying he was, every game, running end to end and creating and scoring and being a consummate pro. We're talking about mathis, and he's always been infuriating.
    But he was still pulling off mathis moments when he left, and the fact that he was a rare US talent was still obvious. It was obvious in the spring with hannover, and for moments in the fall. From what I've seen of him since, people who were unfamilar with his previous form would find it hard to believe that he had "it."
    In 2003, people could still see it.
     
  25. Walter3000

    Walter3000 Member+

    Apr 8, 2004
    gainesville, Florida
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Cygan is playing leftback because Cole and CLichy got hurt.

    Did the thread starter really think Onyewu would go to ManUnited and get significant playing tim eover Silvestre and Brown?
     

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