I think the only way to improve the lower teams in concacaf is to give them some sense of success, and by expanding the the tournament to 16 and having a concacaf only tournament is the only way to do it. Think about it, if a team like Hatiti could qualify for every gold cup (which would be expected if 16 teams present every year) then they would naturally want to get better so that they wouldn't just be there every time but actually competing for a trophy or advancement. It would probably be something like 3 N. American teams, 7 Central American teams, and 6 Caribbean teams
CONCACAF has 40 members (counting both FIFA and non-FIFA members). So how about a 16 teams in the Gold Cup with qualifications as follows: Quarter-Finalist from the previous GC automatically qualify. (Semi-Finalists are the seed teams for the group draw). The other 32 teams are divided into 8 groups of 4 (teams which qualified to the previous GC are seeded). As much as possible teams will be placed with a seeded team from the same sub region. Group play will be double round robin to be played home and away, at a single location or at two location. The non-seed teams in each group determine the qualification method (From the three above) If a non-CFU team is a host, they have to play the travel and lodging cost for CFU away teams. If a single or two location method is chosen the lower ranked team has first choice if they want to host. If no team (or just one team in case of two locations) agrees to host, then the seeded team must host the games. This might be somewhat unfair to some UNCAF teams which are seeded for the qualifiers since they might be forced to pay the expenses of 2-3 CFU teams. The same is true for NAFU teams, but I don't think that any of these teams will have a problem paying.
40 teams may be eligible, but for Gold Cup 2009 only 31 teams entered: 3 North America 7 UNCAF (assuming all of them enter) 16 started in CFU First Round 3 started in CFU Second Round 2 start in CFU Final Round
Ok, how about this. 40 teams in CONCACAF. I think only the host nation should qualify automatically to the finals. Then we have 15 places available for 39 teams. 1st Round - 11 teams are given a bye to the 2nd round. 28 teams play in 7 groups of 4 teams, the top 2 in each group advances to the 2nd round. 3 double-header matchdays, with a rest day in between, in one venue - 5 days altogether. Let's use ELOratings (As they include the non-FIFA members of CONCACAF), and let's suppose the principle of "higher rating wins". Here is a simulated draw: Teams who withdrew would just be removed from the schedule, and less matches would be played in that group. 11 byes to 2nd round: USA Honduras Costa Rica Jamaica Canada Trindiad & Tobago Panama Guatemala El Salvador Guadeloupe Cuba 1st Qualifying Round GROUP 1 Haiti Antigua & Barbuda Dominican Republic British Virgin Islands GROUP 2 Martinique French Guiana Belize Aruba GROUP 3 Barbados Bermuda Nicaragua Bahamas GROUP 4 Guyana Netherlands Antilles Cayman Islands Turks & Caicos Islands GROUP 5 St.Vincent & the Grenadines St.Lucia Puerto Rico United States Virgin Islands GROUP 6 Suriname St.Kitts & Nevis Dominica Anguilla B]GROUP 7[/B] Grenada St.Maarten St.Martin Montserrat As you can see, groups are not too imbalanced, and most of the matches should be competitive. Let's now move on to the 2nd round. We have the 14 1st round qualifiers, and the 11 1st round byes. They would be divided into 5 groups of 5 teams each, with the top 3 in each group qualifying for the Gold Cup (qualifying so many teams from each group ensures that most of the group matches will be meaningful). Again, we could have 5 double-header matchdays, with a rest day in between, in one venue - 9 days altogether. 2nd Qualifying Round GROUP A USA Trinidad & Tobago Cuba St.Vincent & the Grenadines Bermuda GROUP B Honduras Panama Haiti Suriname Netherlands Antilles GROUP C Costa Rica Guatemala Martinique Grenada St.Lucia GROUP D Jamaica El Salvador Barbados Antigua & Barbuda St.Kitts & Nevis GROUP 5 Canada Guadeloupe Guyana French Guiana St.Maarten Some of the matchups might be lopsided, but at least all teams would have a chance of advancing, as the 3rd, 4th and 5th seeds in each group would be reasonably evenly matched. So, from this scenario, we would have a final Gold Cup field of: Mexico USA Honduras Costa Rica Jamaica Canada Trinidad & Tobago Panama Guatemala El Salvador Guadeloupe Cuba Haiti Martinique Barbados Guyana
[“So, UMass, this would improve the competitiveness of the Top 12 CONCACAF teams, but what about the rest? If the top 12 are allowed to improve indefinitely without giving the other 28 a look-in, the gap between the fat cats and the skinny dogs will only get wider.” Yes I would tend to agree with you here. The gap would widen. The top teams in CONCACAF want to keep pace with the rest of the world. They are willing. I would say you would have to ask other nations if they are committed to keeping pace. Some Central American nations are improving their soccer “network”. Panama is in the beginning of a 19 Million national stadium improvement, Costa Rica just knocked down a stadium to build their state of the art stadium. Some nations are committed however most do not have the resources. “And I also think qualification for the North American teams is a good idea. Canada and USA don't get that many competitive games outside friendlies anyway. In what other continent are teams allowed to qualify automatically on a permanent basis? In Asia, we have teams like Turkmenistan and Jordan in the finals tournament, and they don't seem to have any problems there.” This is a good ideological question. I wish all things were equal but they are not. Other federations have countries with similar populations, compatible income levels (for the most part), and close proximity to each other. CONCACAF is not like that at all. The USA economic output matches that of entire Europe so they have the financial resources to build a $250 Million national training center (Home Depot Center). A state (California) has as many people as Canada 33 Million. Our small states Massachusetts has a bigger population 6 Million compared to that of a 3 Million Costa Rica and about 3 Million Panama. When you compare Turkmenistan and Jordan with USA and Trinidad and Tobago is like comparing apples and dump trucks. All I am saying is we are not like other federations so automatic qualifications apply here. ( I am not agreeing or disagreeing just explaining…we are different) “You have to play what is in front of you. So what if Mexico have to play Puerto Rico to qualify, or USA have to play Anguilla. So what if they win 9-0 or 10-0. Many European teams were hammered when they first started (Iceland for example), but because they were allowed to play the better teams in qualification, they've now improved into a decent team. It took time, yes, but without that chance to play these teams, they would still be minnows. “ Again we are different but I believe the “competition” issue is addressed. UNCAF has the nations Cup and the Caribbean region has the Caribbean Cup every 2 years. These are good competition where Anguilla can play Cuba. There are plenty of teams in the Caribbean that are better that the lesser teams in the Caribbean. This is how they become better…if they want. There is no scenes of USA beating Aruba 10-0 with it’s B team when Aruba will be beat by Jamaica, Trinidad and Tobago and Cuba on a regular basis. The minnows can play the small fish before the sharks. Thanks for not sounding insulting with post to me! I love the Gold Cup, the competition, the fans and I can not wait for Gold Cup 2009. So thanks for the banter. I will look for a reply if needed. Cheers
Thanks UMass, I didn't intend to be insulting. Well, the competition format I laid out above would address the USA 'B' team v Aruba thing, but would bring up a USA v Bermuda, or v St.Vincent. These teams are better than Aruba, but would probably lose 6 or 7 against the US, at least away from home. However, we must also bear in mind that for these teams, they don't get to play the likes of the USA and Mexico at all otherwise. Testing yourself against good teams is the only way the lesser teams can improve. If we take my simulated draw above, let's assume that Trinidad & Tobago was given hosting rights for the qualification group. So, we'd have at least two fairly competitive games for the US (away to Trinidad, and against Cuba, who I'd have to assume would not lose 6-1 at a neutral venue). The games against St.Vincent and Bermuda would not be entirely one-sided, with perhaps 5 or 6 goals for the US at most. 5 and 6 goal beatings are the norm in other confederations' qualifying (even in UEFA). The fact that all games would be played in one venue over a short period would also address the problem of playing a B team. Sure, there may be some rotation, but with a squad of, say, 20 players, I'm sure that the USA wouldn't want to risk the ignominy of not qualifying by sending a B squad. If the US sent a B squad, they would run the real risk of losing against Cuba and Trinidad's full squads, and that would leave them having to make sure they beat Bermuda & St.Vincent, which again may not be too easy with a B squad, along with all the pressure to win. Plus, it's only 4 matches to qualify over 9 days. Not too much to ask of a country with the US's resources, and in my opinion, a lot better than playing friendly matches.
What do you think of this procedure for getting from 31 teams that attempted Gold Cup qualifying or qualified for Gold Cup 2009 automatically to a 16 team field? 4 semifinalists from the previous Gold Cup get in automatically (Mexico and the United States should be semifinalists every time, but Canada who currently gets in automatically may have to qualify sometimes) 5 teams, the 4 losing quarterfinalists from the previous Gold Cup and 1 more get a bye to the group stage of qualifying 22 teams, everybody else, are drawn into 11 pairings and play two leg series before the group stage of qualifying The 11 winners and the 5 teams that got a bye to there get drawn into 4 groups of 4 with either 1 or 2 of the 5 teams that got a bye to there in each group. Groups would be played double round-robin (6 games each). Because the top 3 out of 4 teams in each group qualify, some games would be meaningless as far as qualification goes, but to make them more meaningful I would make the group winners 2 seeds in the Gold Cup, second place teams would be 3 seeds in the Gold Cup, and third place teams would be 4 seeds in the Gold Cup. The 4 teams that qualified automatically would be 1 seeds. Ecah Gold Cup group would have one of each number seed and teams that were in the same qualification group would not be allowed to be in the same Gold Cup group. Qualifying would require 6 or 8 games at 4 or 5 sites depending on if the team had to play in the first round or not. In the current CFU format, countries that started in the first round would play 8 qualifiers (9 if they were in the first round group of 4) plus semifinals and finals after the 4 qualifiers are determined. If the number of teams entering went siginificantly above 31, I would consider expanding the number of teams in the group stage.
You guys are forgetting about Puerto Rico, who are definitely better than most of the Carribbean nations and are probably the fastest improving team in concacaf. They are one of only 4 Carribbean sides that can put out a fully professional side.
I know that the next CONCACAF MEN'S GOLD CUP is oing to take place between 3rd July and 26th July 2009. Could any one tell m now in which country please? I am interested in attending some matches. I come from afar and therefore I need time to book lodgings, flights, match tickets etc........
We are all waiting word on that! The first place it will be posted in www.concacaf.com There is a link to the 2009 Gold Cup on the home page on the right. However the only news is about the Caribbnean qualifing. there is not mention of "how many teams qualify". In 2007 the announcement was 10-31-06. This gave the venues (7 months)time to market the games. Since the Gold Cup is pushed back a month I am thinking CONCACAF should announce it by Nov 31, 2008. This will give them the same about of time to market the games.
Well it sounds good in principal and I am for it. However most federations just do not have the $ to sent their teams on these tournaments. The Caribbean Cup is sponsored by Digicel. http://www.caribbeannetnews.com/news-1963--8-8--.html "Digicel’s injection of funds was used to revamp the tournament format resulting in a competition featuring more teams (24) playing in more matches (69) in more venues (10 different islands) than ever before." I do not know how much money was used to donate, and I do not know what the expense is. (No one will know until the corruption is out of soccer...we will only know when the federations open the book so the media can see. That will expose the corruption so it will never happen..) However it sound like CFU needs this money to pay for the new format. That said ..once you lessen the importance of the Caribbean Cup (with qualifing)this will have a direct effect on Sponers donating $. Right now the Caribbean Cup is a qualifing for the Gold Cup which makes the CFU "Digicel"Cup very important for the Caribbean nations and the sponsers. I believe that the interest is growing but is just not there yet for the qualifing. The interest is not there yet for even the Caribbean Cup with the lack of fans support. This is a qualifing tournament and it also crows the Caribbean champion. Here are a few pics that show "no" fans watching the Cup. Here are the first 2 pic I found that shows the lack of fans support. http://concacaf.com/graphics/articles/large_photo/4487.jpg http://concacaf.com/graphics/articles/large_photo/4484.jpg http://www.caribbeannetnews.com/news-1963--8-8--.html
just looking at the competitiveness of the caribbean tourney, i definately thing 16 teams would be an exciting approach to the gold cup. However, we would have to do it every 4 years, there are too many tournaments as it is.
Wiipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Gold_Cup) says it will be in the United States, but I have yet to find that information in any official sources, so I would definitely not assume so. As for the makeup of future Gold Cups, I absolutely believe it should be solely CONCACAF teams (and Copa America should be solely CONMEBOL teams, no matter how much I enjoy seeing the U.S. compete with the best of South America, even if it is our "B" team). I think the number of teams is good as is, maybe go as high as 16, but that's it. I would be wary of having half of your teams making your continental championship tournament (other than Copa America doing so for obvious reasons).
I wouldn't assume so - not completely. So I removed from Wikipedia. Someone should provide a verifable reference.
When I saw this (http://www.concacaf.com/view_article.aspx?id=4514) it made me think this would be a test case to see the viability of a 16-team tournament: "The board also decided to review its qualifying procedures for the men’s U-17 and U-20 championships beginning in 2011. The present system has both Central America and the Caribbean staging separate qualifying tournaments to determine two berths each in the eight-team championship, and then having one team from each region play off to determine a fifth place. The three North American teams: Canada, Mexico and the United States, qualify automatically. The matter was sent to the youth committee to devise specific proposals." And no doubt the proposals would include a case where the entire North and Central directly advance, and six Carribbean teams would qualify via their tournament. For the Gold Cup, it really doesn't make sense for the Central to hold a 7-team tournament to qualify 5 teams (and another for a playoff). Eliminating the Central tournament (just like the Central club tournament was folded into the Champions League) would also have one less time (two for the playoff team) that clubs would have to release players.
I see your point, but isn't that qualifying tournament for Central America also a pretty big (championship) event there (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UNCAF_Nations_Cup)? In other words, I am not sure if that tournament will be eliminated, even if it is no longer used as a qualifying tournament for the Gold Cup. Also, I'm not sure if any extra spots should go to Central America, to be honest. According to the FIFA rankings (http://www.fifa.com/worldfootball/ranking/lastranking/gender=m/fullranking.html#confederation=23914&rank=178), Central American teams are ranked 3rd, 4th, 5th, 10th, 11th and 18th and Caribbean teams are ranked 6th, 7th, 9th, 12th, 13th, 14th, 15th, 16th, 17th, 19th and 20th. In other words, if you went from 12 to 16 teams, maybe the extra four teams should all come from the Caribbean.
Central American teams are ranked 3rd, 4th, 5th, 10th, 11th and 18th and Caribbean teams are ranked 6th, 7th, 9th, 12th, 13th, 14th, 15th, 16th, 17th, 19th and 20th. In other words, if you went from 12 to 16 teams, maybe the extra four teams should all come from the Caribbean.[/QUOTE] This is a great topic to discuss. The only way I see it going to 16 teams is if Dominican Republic and Puerto Rico become consistently strong. Both nations have a large populous in the US and Warner will want fans to fill the stands. Warner will not expand if Grenada and Bermuda play Barbados and Antigua/Barbuda in a double header and 6 people are in the stands.
So.. I guess this picture proves that no one watched the USA v Jamacia game on Oct 7, 2001: http://cache.gettyimages.com/xc/640...FD823EFD41CFD2AB933A2D1804116284831B75F48EF45 sheesh...
I was doing some youtubeing on Jack Warner the other day and in several interviews about the Gold Cup he mentions that he desires for it to be 16 teams eventually. Warner talked about how the invitee nations in previous tournaments were brought in to help raise the level of play in the region, and now that there are enough strong teams they were able to go with 12 teams all from concacaf. About who should get the next four spots, Belize and Nicaragua are ranked 26th and 29th respectively out of the 35 fifa recognized countries in concacaf. I don't think they are competitive enough on a consistant basis to warrant UNCAF having more than 5 spots. What is the reason that Cuba just pulled out of the 2009 Gold Cup? The press release on concacafs site said "citing developmental concerns" So I find myself wondering how many of the other island nations would pull out of the tournament due to financial or other reasons? I think there are at least 16 teams that would be competitive. With the three North teams, five from Central America that leaves only 8 teams needed from the Caribbean. Jamaica, Trinidad and Tobago, Guadalupe, Cuba, and Haiti have all won games in previous gold cups and Martinique have performed competetively. Surely between those countries as well as Grenada, Guyana, Suriname, Puerto Rico and St Vincet and Grenadines the tournament will be good still. And if there is an issue with attendance concerns, Canada has shown that there are plenty of Hondurans in Montreal and Jamaicans in Toronto so they could just put the fourth group in Canada. Also, if someone could share with me a better understanding of the finances of some of the Caribbean nations. How many of them are generally not able to field teams in the Caribbean Cup on a regular basis?
No sorry...It was to badck up my point. Here are the stats from attendance that might be clearer for you. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caribbean_Championships_2008 Tis interest is just not there.....sorry facts are facts. And when attendance is not posted....it's worse that guessing
Jamaica v. Haiti for May 23 friendly in Ft Lauderdale (Gold Cup Warm-Up) Sean Williams Friday, April 17, 2009 The Reggae Boyz will tackle Caribbean rivals Haiti in a friendly international in Fort Lauderdale, USA, on Saturday, May 23, it was announced yesterday. JFF boss Captain Horace Burrell made the disclosure at the Sherwin Williams Women's Football Awards Presentation at the Federation's New Kingston offices a day after confirming a home game for the senior team against Panama on June 7. "The senior Reggae boyz team will play against Haiti in Fort Lauderdale and we expect it to be a massive game because the people of Haiti will be celebrating a special holiday period (Compas Month)," Burrell said. Organiser of the game, Jeremy Mullings, said he expects a large crowd for the game as the USA will be celebrating Memorial Weekend which falls in line with the May month of celebrations for south Florida's Haitians. This is also a time when the rest of the Caribbean Diaspora swings into party mode. "We are hoping for a sell-out crowd at Lockhart Stadium with all that will be happening on that weekend, and we are getting a good vibe about the event already... and as you know whenever Jamaica play Haiti, it brings out the best in both," said Mullings from Florida yesterday. Jamaica may not have their strongest team for the encounter as the game will not be played on a FIFA-sanctioned date, but Burrell promised that "we will have all our available overseas-based players". The CONCACAF Executive Committee member noted that the match provides an opportunity "for the best local players in the Premier League" to perform for coach John Barnes and his team. Burrell and his team have been finding it difficult to get top-class opposition for the Reggae Boyz - their efforts thwarthed by the team's 70th placing on the FIFA standings and elimination from the World Cup qualifying race. "It's not easy to get worthy opponents now as they're engaged in World Cup qualifiers and... are playing those games on FIFA calendar dates, plus we're not attractive to them because we're not in the World Cup mix," Burrell said on Wednesday in announcing the Panama contest. The Burrell administration was busy these past weeks deflecting media flak for the Boyz's inactivity on the last two FIFA calendar dates of March 28 and April 1. For the March date, the JFF was in fact in advanced negotiations for a match against Oman in Muscat, but the Gulf state decided late to play South Africa instead. The senior team's last friendly international was played on the first FIFA date of the year, February 11 in London, when they played to an entertaining 0-0 tie with Nigeria's Super Eagles. The matches between Haiti and Panama will provide the Reggae Boyz with their final tune-up ahead of the CONCACAF Gold Cup which runs from July 3-26 in 13 US cities. Haiti, like Jamaica, are out of World Cup contention but will join their Caribbean neighbours in the Gold Cup. Ranked a modest 119 by FIFA, Haiti will contest Group B alongside the USA, Honduras and Digicel Caribbean Championships runners-up Grenada. Jamaica, who won the regional championships, will compete in Group A alongside Canada, Costa Rica and El Salvador, while Panama contest Group C with Guadeloupe, Mexico and Nicaragua.