double-headers would be fine. Some of the games already draw dick, so doubling up USA or Mexico with another match would be a good way to go. As far as hosting goes, if the Gold cup wants to get serious it has to move the hosting duties, and not just to the 3 North American sides. Id rather see a packed 30k stadium than an empty soldier field, which is what you would have seen if Guadeloupe played Canada in the final anyway. The gold cup only seems like a success considering how the final went.
I guess you did not read or just ignored the links. The links shoot down your idea that a Central American team would have 30k. Probably like 15k and that would be for their team. They probably would have
Now seeing the first leg of the second qualifiers I feel that another four teams could be added to this thing. Taking the 12 from 07 we could easily add - Jamaica, Grenada, Puerto Rico (if they would ever try to get there), Bermuda (i called the upset before it happened), and others but i have selected my four Also playing more competitive matches would raise the level of some of those teams trying to get over the hump. Anyone willing to reignite this discussion based on WCQ?
I'm all for a 16 team Gold Cup. In addition to the obvious 12: USA Mexico Canada Costa Rica Honduras Panama Guatemala El Salvador Jamaica T&T Cuba Haiti There is little doubt that adding the best 4 out of the rest, based on current form, wouldn't create a huge talent gap and would provide the occasional Cinderella excitement, a la Guadeloupe. Frankly, at this point, I'd much rather watch the US beat a young and energetic Netherlands Antilles 4-0 than the same old cynical and declining El Salvador. At this point, I would guess that those 4 teams would come from: Guadaloupe Netherlands Antilles Guyana Surinam Bermuda Grenada St. V/G Puerto Rico
Currently the three North American Teams receive byes into the tourney, while the Central American Teams and the Caribbean teams must qualify. The places are allocated as follows N. America - 3 (3) C. America - 5 (5) Caribbean - 4 (8) All of the teams we have included as could qualify are Caribbean. Could we give the four remaining positions to the Caribbean as indicated in the parenthesis above, or should we revamp the qualification system where the host gets a direct seed and the other 15 must qualify (other countries should be able to host BTW)? There are 40 teams (Counting Guadeloupe, Martinique, and the other non Fifa Members) Hypothetically lets say we have a situation like the one that follows. USA host -----------------------------------------39 remaining teams. 18 lowest teams playoff (9 teams eliminated)--------30 remaining teams. 30 teams two legged playoff (15 winners join USA)--16 teams This way the bigger teams have to qualify, but also may only need their "big guns" for one game if they win convincingly in their first game.
Soccerprep shows a good qualifying system, provided Mexico and Canada don't mind going through qualifying (or USA if they don't host). I don't know if CONCACAF feels it's ready to expand the Gold Cup just yet. 2007 was the first time the tournament was held without guest participants, so they may want to keep a 12-team field for a while. Until then, it would be interesting if UNCAF decided to have one group to determine its representatives, rather than two unbalanced groups. With one group of 7 teams, the sides play each other only once, and each country gets 3 games at home and 3 games on the road. The top 4 would qualify for the Gold Cup. There are 30 teams in the CFU for Gold Cup Qualifying (25 for the World Cup), but not all of them choose to enter the draw. I can't remember seeing French Guiana, Saint Marten, or Sint Maarten in the last two Gold Cup cycles, while Martinique and Guadeloupe qualified for the last two tournaments. Assuming there are 28 sides to participate in the Caribbean, you could have seven sites in the islands to host four teams each. A single round robin could be played over the course of a week to ten days, with the 7 winners advancing to the final group stage. Those 7 teams would play a 6-game schedule like my UNCAF proposal, with each side getting three home and three road games. The top 4 from this group would go to the Gold Cup finals, while the last place would be contested between the 5th place teams from Central America and the Caribbean over a two-leg series. I also would like to see the Gold Cup go to a four year, rather than a two year tournament. 2009 will be rough for the six teams in the final hex for WC 2010, as well as the United States who will play in the Confederations Cup. Then again, for teams not in the final hex, the Gold Cup could become very important for them.
I share your sentiments on expanding it to 16 teams. CONCACAF function is to promote and organize these types of tournaments. CONCACAF is made up of 40 teams (most are nations) and only 12 get a chance last year to participate in their own tournament. I agree it should expand to 16 teams. It would be great to see other teams join in the fun and have their fans cheer them on. Let me add another good quality team like Martinique from the Carribean and the spirited Belize team that played Mexico tight in the first game of WCQ. I would not give up on El Salvador. The victory over Panama has rejunivate the entire national side of El Salvador. I am glad you mentioned Puerto Rico. There are close to 4 Million people in Puerto Rico and maybe a Million more living in the States. The island just started a new soccer league this year...I beleive this weekend. This will create interest in Puerto Rico and the Caribbean federation.They just might turn a good quality team in the near future and their fans could rival some of the big Central American teams that turn out to cheer their country on. That would be nice to see. http://www.eloratings.net/caribbean.html
I disagree with you. I think it is good that the Gold Cup is every two years. It gives the minnows something to aim for after they are eliminated from the World Cup and gives them more chances to compete in a big tournament. This can only help them develope into stronger teams.
What I'd love to see is the Gold Cup got to the same years as Copa America, and then have a tournament between the top 4 in Copa and the top 4 in the Gold Cup in the next year, leaving the other odd year for the majority of the qualifiers. But that's not going to happen, so the Gold Cup every two years is probably better.
I'm in favor of expanding the gold cup to 16 teams. I think we should give two more spots to carribbean teams and send two invites to CONMEBOL. For this to be successful I think we should make the tournament every four years. After 2009 we should wait untill 2012 then have it every four years.
Good idea Flipstar508! I agree with you on the two invites from Conmebol. Possibly a Colombia and Ecuador. This would only give the Carribean two more entrants and still make a 16 country tournament competitive and exciting.
Thanks, I would like concacaf to to atleast experiment with this.. It gives those smaller nations another reason to have a national team.
The only benefit I see by adding 2 CONMEBOL nations is that CONCACAF can send 2 nations to the 12 CONMEBOL tournament. It would be nice to see CONCACAF teams do well. Only Argintina and Brazil have the fans following to fill a stadium. Most other S American countries do not have the following. I would much rather try to promote the South Am teams in Concacaf that rank near the top 12 in CONCACAF. Suriname is presently in the final 12 of CONCACAf qualifing (Fifa rank 7th in CONCACAF) while Guyana is presently ranked 12th in CONCACAF. (Sept-04-2009) http://www.fifa.com/worldfootball/r...fullranking.html#confederation=23914&rank=173 I would like to see 16 CONCACAF teams. The last group of 12 had a tremendous tournament. I would like to add Both Suriname ,Guyana and Jamaica to this group of 12 to make 15 teams. CONCACAF only need one more quality team and that can be determined with either the UNCAF nations Cup or the Caribbean Cup. A total CONCACAF Gold Cup to me would be more exciting and entertaining than invitee teams. Guadeloupe had a great run and this is what CONCACAF needs, CONCACAF teams knocking off the top teams in CONCACAF and not guest team upsetting the favorites in the Gold Cup. I is my opinion that CONCACAF officials should be promotting it's teams.
Follow Euro lead with change! I have to change my mind again because of the Changes that are happening at the interantional level. The European federation just expanded the Euro championship to 24 nations. This will make it more interesting for other nations who do not always qualify for the European Championship. The big nations like Italy, Germany, France Spain and England always seem to make the 16 team tournament. Increasing the field will open it up spots for other nations like Ireland, Poland and Scotland. More teams will have the chance of qualifying and the excitement of the groups will increase. CONCACAF finally moved to a 4 team group play in 2005 and 2007 and was greeted with great success. CONCACAF should also expand its Championship to 16 Nations for the exact reason. This will also create interest with the other nations with in CONCACAF and give the tournament more exposure. This also might create more goals and that would be nice to see. What the Gold Cup has to guard against in the drop in quality of play. Blatter also indicated that a spot might be taken from CONCACAF and given to the African Federations CAF for the World Cup. Nothing will be done quickly but CONCACAF has to take action to prevent this. I propose that the Gold Cup invites 2 guest nations to participate in its Gold Cup now. One nation can come from the Federation that may get our World Cup spot, CAF. Inviting a team like South Africa would be great. South Africa is always in the news and they will be hosting the next World Cup. It will also give CONCACAF a taste of African soccer which is very physical and rough. CONCACAF nations need to prove they can play and win against this type of competition. It would be very hard for an African nation to win the Gold Cup because of travel, culture and playing so far from home. The longer they last in the tournament the harder it will be for them to win. The other nation should come from CONMEBOL, our South American neighbor. CONCACAF and CONMEBOL had an agreement to exchange teams for their Championships. The agreement ended when the Gold Cup had all CONCACAF nations in 2007. COMEBOL only has 10 nations and needs 2 more to round out the field to 12. CONCACAF benefited by having the 5 time World Cup Champions Brazil participate 3 times. This elevated the Gold Cup and gave it much needed visibility in its infancy. Columbia also participated 3 times in the Gold Cup and they would be an excellent participant. They would bring the dynamic and creative play a lot of South American nations have. CONCACAF nations have to play against this type of soccer to be successful. The guest nations would be placed in the hardest groups. The qualification can stay the same with 3 North American nations, 5 Central American nations and 4 Caribbean. That will leave the 2 unaccounted for spots with the 2 invited nations. I propose to have a 4 nation mini tournament between the 2 remaining Central American nations and 2 Caribbean nations. Top 2 qualify.
I agree Umass, Concacaf should invite two well known teams to the gold cup to raise the visibility of the competition. I would like to see Brazil and Argentina because they are 2 of the best teams in the world. This will also provide better competition which will define how good concacaf teams really are.
CONCACAF should absolutely NOT invite teams. That LOWERS the profile of the competition because outsiders don't even send their best teams, so it makes a mockery of the competition. The 2007 Gold Cup was, BY FAR, the best Gold Cup ever. Mostly because the entire field was CONCACAF. And this was, as pointed out by others, without the presence of Jamaica, Suriname, or Guyana. Those nations aside, Martinique, Grenada, Barbados, St. Kitts & Nevis, St. Vincent/Grenadines, and possibly a few others would be just fine in the competition too. Gold Cup could easily go to 16 teams, ALL CONCACAF, and maintain its quality from 2007 if not improve on it. Brazil's U-23 team or South Africa's B squad (both of which participated in past tournaments) will only LOWER the quality and prestige that the tournament has started to acquire since it left those invited teams behind in 2005. ----- Also I disagree with just about everything UMass said in post #43. The major point: -If CONCACAF is to fight against CAF (or any other federation) for World Cup spots, the only way to win is to have stronger CONCACAF teams. The reason we risk losing spots is because this is how FIFA views us: CONCACAF has 2 teams (USA and Mexico) who will generally qualify and be competitive; that is, they will be threats to advance to the knockout round. CONCACAF has another team (Costa Rica) who will generally qualify but get knocked out of the group stage without really threatening to advance CONCACAF has another team (Trinidad & Tobago) who was just "happy to be there" and never really even threatened to win a game, let alone advance out of the group. We have 3.5 spots, but looking at that, FIFA might be thinking that maybe we only deserve 2.5. We need the "lower" teams (everyone below USA and Mexico) to improve. That's the only way to get more spots. If Costa Rica, Honduras, and Trinidad are all making good showings in the World Cup when they do get there, then FIFA has to say "okay maybe we need to give them more". 2006 was a disaster for CONCACAF, Mexico was the only team to even win a game (and they only won one! 3-1 over Iran!)... we have to figure out why this happened and an answer is maybe that we need to be more competitive in our own tournaments. Thus, CONCACAF has created a tougher club tournament (CONCACAF Champions League) and a tougher Gold Cup (12 teams, all CONCACAF - aka now everyone cares about the cup and fights harder as opposed to "guest teams" who send backups and generally don't care how they do, they just like that they get a couple of "free games" to play and work on some things). A 16 team all-CONCACAF Gold Cup will only further increase the level of play for the region AND it benefits the new teams that are qualifying (the St. Vincents, etc.) as well as the ones who are already there (the Costa Ricas, etc.)
Agree but nevertheless do not think we should have 16 yet. When there are 16 PROFESSIONAL Leagues in Concacaf then we should consider 16 national teams. We all ready have 12 and we do not have 12 Pro national leagues. Systems works just fine, I would not invite anyone, and give slots to the smaller teams or more repechajes.
When we have a 12 team tournament that was successful (like we did) with some of the better teams missing out (most notably Jamaica, but also Surinam and Guyana) then I think it's safe to assume we could easily have a 16 team tournament without any drop in play. In fact, I think it would be MORE competitive because teams will have to finish top 2 in their groups to advance, instead of top 3 (out of 4!)... Assuming, with a 16 team field, the 'usual' 12 qualify (USA, Mexico, Canada, Costa Rica, Honduras, Guatemala, Panama, El Salvador, Trinidad & Tobago, Cuba, Haiti, and Jamaica) and the fact that Guadeloupe has proven they can be competitive, I think it is fair to assume that the level of play will NOT decrease significantly (if at all) by adding just 3 of the following: Suriname, Guyana, Martinique, Grenada, Netherlands Antilles, St. Vincent/Grenadines, St. Kitts & Nevis, Barbados, Bermuda, Antigua & Barbuda.
Agreed. And teams like, Guadeloupe, Netherlands Antilles, Grenada, etc. already have the majority of their players playing top-level football in Europe, they(and other countries like Cuba and Haiti) have done decent without professional leagues, though I admit pro leagues would help their football programs even more. This tournament's primary objective for now should be to develop CONCACAF talent and give our teams a compeditive environment to play in.
I have to disagree with you. I think the level of play would suffer. I would say we could clump most of these teams and they are about the same quality of play. Well USA beat Barbados 8-0 in WCQ, Guatemala beat St Lucia 9-1 aggregate, Antigua & Barbuda lost 3-8 to a ok Cuban team, Canada (not the top team in CONCACAF) pounded St Vincent 7-1 on aggregate. These lower teams are just not that good. A 12 team all CONCACAF reflected quality play throughout (except when Cuban players defected). If it increased to 16 CONCACAF I see a real problem. The lower teams may be beat 9-0 against Mex-US-Costa Rica. and that would hurt the image of the Gold Cup. I think these teams make the tournament LESS competitive. (This is not a personal attack...just an opinion...I think we both want to see the play improve in CONCACAF and hoping to improve the Gold Cup) I believe the Gold cup has to get more competitive and that is with guest teams. The next World Cup is in S Africa. I think the Gold Cup should have 2 invited teams from the World Cup's host confederation (CAF for example). The USA and Mex (I’ll mention Costa Rica since they are a quality team and their fans get huffy if you do not mention them) need to have better teams play them. the USA has never lost in Group play in the Gold Cup. They have never lost to a team in CONCACAF (except Mexico) in Gold cup play from CONCACAF. They need better competition to get them (or any team) ready for the next World Cup in an international tournament. Place these teams (Nigeria and S Africa) in with Mex and USA for group play. This would increase group play for the 2 CONCACAF titans and get them ready for the next World Cup. This would also give 2 more CONCACAF teams a chance to participate in their regional tournament without taking to much away from the quality of play. Group A Mexico, El Salvador, S Africa and Guyana Group B Costa Rica, Guatemala, Trinidad, Cuba Group C Honduras, Canada, Jamaica, Haiti Group D USA, Nigeria, Panama, Guadeloupe All groups would be challenging and competitive. It gives Mexico and USA a real challenge in group play. The other groups would be very competitive w/ CONCACAF teams fighting for 2 knockout spots. The next World cup is in Brazil so 2 CONMEBOL teams like Columbia and Ecuador could be invited for Gold Cup 2011 and then increase the competition with Brazil, Paraguay for Gold Cup 2013 to get ready for Brazil in 2014. Playing quality teams from other federations will get us (all CONCACAF teams) ready for World Cup play. This is how CONCACAF teams can get better...by playing better teams in meaningful games. And if a CONCACAF team does in WC play the entire region looks good. This is the way I believe we can look better in FIFA eyes. This way competition for CONCACAF teams will be playing quality teams. This is just an opinion BTY.
So, UMass, this would improve the competitiveness of the Top 12 CONCACAF teams, but what about the rest? If the top 12 are allowed to improve indefinitely without giving the other 28 a look-in, the gap between the fat cats and the skinny dogs will only get wider. And I also think qualification for the North American teams is a good idea. Canada and USA don't get that many competitive games outside friendlies anyway. In what other continent are teams allowed to qualify automatically on a permanent basis? In Asia, we have teams like Turkmenistan and Jordan in the finals tournament, and they don't seem to have any problems there. You have to play what is in front of you. So what if Mexico have to play Puerto Rico to qualify, or USA have to play Anguilla. So what if they win 9-0 or 10-0. Many European teams were hammered when they first started (Iceland for example), but because they were allowed to play the better teams in qualification, they've now improved into a decent team. It took time, yes, but without that chance to play these teams, they would still be minnows. Personally, I think the optimal would be: FIFA: 32 teams UEFA: 16 teams (I don't like the 24 thing, it didn't work in the World Cup, and I don't think it'll work in UEFA - the "only some 3rd place teams qualify" is unwieldy, and this also applies to a 12-team tournament. In UEFA, even going all the way to a 32-team tournament wouldn't reduce competitiveness that much, but may be difficult to schedule. CONMEBOL: 10 teams - no choice really, unless the Falkland Islands join FIFA (then we'd still have 10 teams, because Argentina would withdraw). CAF: 16 teams AFC: 16 teams CONCACAF: 16 teams OFC: 8 teams