Goal contribution of the best players

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by Trachta10, Nov 4, 2020.

  1. Ftblabsolute

    Ftblabsolute Member

    France
    Mar 17, 2024
    That's not my argument, Puck just tried to make it seem Ajax was a nobody team before Cruyff when that's factually wrong.
    He left the club in 1973/74 so not really
     
  2. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #2427 PuckVanHeel, Jun 24, 2024
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2024
    That's an insult and shows indeed where you are at. He is commonly 3rd, 4th, 5th (even with the handicap he is Dutch - no big language, mass market etc.). Top 10 is an insult. Granted, for ADS there is a case (I did myself in the past) but the ones who place Beckenbauer ahead go on my blacklist.

    That was a reply to the idea it was already a (domestically) great team before he joined. It was in the relegation zone before he was introduced as key player. A reply to the idea 'oh Henk Groot is also there' (why was Ajax so poor in 1971 without him then?)

    In the seasons before 1966 that you have 5th places, 6th places and yes also three championships in the first twenty years after WW-II.

    It is also clear the goalscoring went up and suffered without him. This despite the much higher goals per game around 1961.

    Goals per game was in 1960 and 1961 way higher....

    As for the manager part: here a Michael Laudrup documentary and appraisal. What is said around 6:00.


    But hey, the Danes are one of the smartest and most advanced people in the world...

    This is outright comical. 50 years later!!! Thing is: they didn't score 100+ or 120+ goals before him (yes, 1960, 1961 with an outrageous league goals per game). They didn't after him, until his return as manager in 1985.

    It takes time to build up a ranking right? When it is by 1971 or 1972 number one or number two then the results of 1965 (and earlier) have fallen away. You also continue to ignore the forced downgrade, showing how he is the true underdog footballer, not Maradona. It bounced back to top 2 in the late 70s.

    That very same source has the league 8th by 1993. So it wasn't better by that source. (there are finals in 1997, 1988 and 1992 obviously)

    In the meantime, it seems you struggle to accept even in 2018 the 200-400th best players (this excludes the ones playing for Morocco, Turkey etc!) are quite close to the Argentine ones. Then it was 10th or 9th, now 5th or 6th.

    It is you who has an agenda and needs about 20 deceptions for this.
     
  3. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #2428 PuckVanHeel, Jun 24, 2024
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2024
    This is what I said when I mentioned that.

    "In 1964, then yes, it was not close to great but that it became great was for a part because of Cruijff and the leap to professionalism; look at his record against the strong teams (incl. club friendlies) until 1970; in 1969 reaching the EC final with 6 goals and 6 assists (penalty won against the mean AC Milan defense) as only recognized quality player; the results before and after him, or without him, speak for itself. Where was Ajax just before Michels and Cruijff? Close to the relegation zone. With various 5th and 6th places the years before."

    You have now made a few times this accusation, but I already said there are 5th and 6th places the years before. Again, deliberately dishonest.

    In international perspective it was a nobody team and a semi-pro team. Also domestically there were only 3 championships in 20 years (and a chunk of finishes outside the top 3). It became the best club team in the world.
     
  4. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Various versions of the Goalimpact algorithm have him #1 all-time. This accounts for team mate level and opponent level.

    Depends a bit on which version but in more than one iteration he is number one. Something that funnily enhances itself when only looking at his post-1973 career as a player.
     
  5. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Yeah, I'd say Messi and Pele are tier one if I have to make a choice. Cruijff tier 2 (only as a player). Van Basten, Ronaldo (I think you are harsh) tier 3. Rijkaard, Robben, Hazard, De Bruyne, Gullit, Garrincha tier 4.

    But that's me.
     
  6. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    It was not a top five league by the early 70s (per the coefficients) it was one and two. Also, it takes time to build up a ranking. By 1971 the results for the 1965 year fall away. In 1972 the results for the 1966 year fall away etc.

    Also, just to show how ridiculous that 'historians' list is. If this is in 1970 the 25th to 30th best league (this was the first source you used and mentioned!) it means Uruguay league was placed at a higher level and tier.

    Only validates my idea that we are an easy target to let them pay the price and bump down.

    Totally absurd ranking (just like those 20+ "omissions" by you).
     
  7. Runnec

    Runnec Member

    Deportivo La Coruña
    Spain
    Dec 4, 2023
    Thanks for this i appreciate it a lot :thumbsup:

    It does feel odd to see someone you are friends with like Mihir Rao mentioned by someone else :laugh:
     
    PDG1978 repped this.
  8. Ftblabsolute

    Ftblabsolute Member

    France
    Mar 17, 2024
    #2433 Ftblabsolute, Jun 24, 2024
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2024
    In what world is this an insult ?? Top 10 doesn't mean I put him 10th, he's 4-5th on my personal list. And who precisely mentioned Beckenbauer? Or even Di Stéfano, I didn't even talk about him.

    Ajax was in the relegation zone once, in 64/65, before that they were 5 times on the podium in 9 seasons. Before 1964/65, Ajax remains the team with the most titles (10) in the Netherlands. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eredivisie#Champions So yes it was a major Dutch team atleast. They participated to European Cups four times, reaching the Quarter Final in 1958.

    Again I do not discredit Cruyff for how he 'carried' Ajax & Barça but the level of the opposition he faced during his peak, what can't you understand? I literally never dissed what he did for Barça, why are you even bringing this?

    They scored 106 goals in 94/95 and either way this high number of goals wasn't necessary since football got more and more defensive, Ajax for example conceded 20 to 30 goals in the 90s when in the 80s it's more around 40 goals. Same in the 1970s except for the first 3 seasons.

    It's quite surprising how you're blatantly lying, Eredivisie was either 2nd or 3rd consecutively from 1972 to 1979, was 2nd in 73/74 when Cruyff left, in 75/76 too:
    upload_2024-6-24_17-48-19.png
    It's quite surprising to see how the reality is practically the opposite of what you're trying to say. From 1964 to 1971, Eredivisie is outside the top 5, then top 4 and 2 for the 2 last seasons of Cruyff's first stint at Ajax. Then he comes back in 1981/82, the league is third (he plays 15 league games) and the season right it falls to 10th place, then 12th place. The Ereddivisie was at its peak (in terms of points and ranking combined) in 1977/78, 5 seasons after Cruyff left, which means that the ranking here included only performances that were done by Dutch clubs after Cruyff left. Not when he was there. Again and again, in seasons Cruyff played in the Eredivisie the average ranking on UEFA coefficients of the league was 9.75, in the 1990s it was 6.5.

    I ignore that part because it genuinely has NOTHING to do with the current topic, which is the Eredivisie in the 1960s, you're just trying to make it seem like I have an agenda for Argentina and Hungary (two nations that I didn't even mention in everything I wrote, not once??) ignoring half of what I say. Genuinely, what has the current quality of Dutch football to do with what it had in the 1960s?


    The way you formed the sentence makes an emphasize on the relegation zone and make it seems like 5th and 6th places were rare ("various"), which is simply not the case. They were close to the relegation zone once, but were on the podium 5 times in the previous 9 seasons, winning 2 titles. 2 titles is the same record as Cristiano's Real Madrid from 2009 to 2018 to put that in context.
    Again, before 1964, Ajax is still the record-holder for most titles in the Netherlands with 10.

    Top 5 is the way of talking to globalize the best European leagues, again top X doesn't mean X-th. Exactly and they achieved their 'peak' after all seasons Cruyff played stopped being counted. By the way, again and again, uefa coefficient will only show level for the top 4-5 or 6 teams, not the entire league so it's really a fallacy to use it as a gospel for the strength of the league.

    You're just blatantly lying here again, the first source for ranking I used was the UEFA coefficient, which was literally my very first post :
    "Since you're using the UEFA coefficients as an argument, here is Netherlands' ranking in them in the seasons Cruyff played (during his first stint as this was the period in which he performed the best statistically speaking)
    https://kassiesa.net/uefa/data/method1/crank1970.html
    1965 - 13th
    1966 - 12th (Cruijff's absolute peak in terms of end product)
    1967 - 12th (Cruijff's absolute peak in terms of end product)
    1968 - 17th
    1969 - 14th
    1970 - 12th
    1971 - 6th
    1972 - 4th
    1973 - 2nd"
    Like literally that's just a lie. It's not even the 2nd source I used, in the same post I mentioned clubelo.com :
    "And when checking the elo rankings of the Netherlands in 1963 (no archive for years after sadly clubelo.com stopped showing rankings of years before), Netherlands was the 20th best league in Europe out of 26 by average of the elo of the teams (https://archive.ph/qtlyL)."
    I also used national team's rankings, using your own logic, guess what? You ignored it :
    "Netherlands' ranking on eloratings.net is as follow:
    1965 - 38th
    1966 - 33rd
    1967 - 32nd
    1968 - 31st
    1969 - 31st
    1970 - 26th (it seems your ranking is heavily wrong? https://www.eloratings.net/1970)
    1971 - 24th
    1972 - 18th
    1973 - 16th
    By your own logic, being that the level of the national team is an indicator for the league's level, the Dutch league was really mediocre. And again, by your own logic."
    Funny to see how you also blatantly posted a fake thing.
    I used a 4th argument for the league which you ignored too :
    "Here's Netherlands ranking in terms of average elo since 1964 (1st Jan each year)
    1964 - 17th
    1965 - 19th
    1966 - 19th
    1967 - 17th
    1968 - 16th
    1969 - 15th
    Not gonna do it for the other years as it takes time but during Cruyff's absolute peak, the Netherlands were outside the top 15 leagues in Europe."
    You're just saying that because the creator was German (so now if you're from a specific country you're biased? Bullshit) and that it was based on assumptions when it's simply false. I also asked you to tell me what factors in the equation make it biased, you didn't answer. Please stop embarrassing yourself. I didn't even use the ranking as a complete argument, I just threw it in the thread because I remembered having that in my documents. It wasn't even part of my main post yet you focused on it and ignored half of what I said saying, as an excuse, that because I used a fluke ranking that doesn't suit your agenda, my whole argumentation is biased and "approaches evil".
    Again I myself explained that the source is dodgy for teams that don't play European competitions much, exclude them and Netherlands is still far behind the likes of Italy, Germany, England etc...
    How are you an easy target when three different sources say the Dutch league was barely top 10 during Cruyff's prime? You yourself admitted it was a mediocre league in the 1960s during Cruyff's prime. I don't even know why you keep arguing when you yourself agreed with my point that Cruyff played in a mediocre league during his prime, stop putting words in my mouth.
    I'm still waiting for the list of those 20 omissions which I already asked. Quite ironic when you do the same to suit your agenda.
     
  9. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    What do you not understand about that it takes time to build up a ranking? By 1972 the results for the year 1966 had fallen away, by 1973 the results of 1967 etc.

    I have already exposed so many of your lies that you are not worth my time any more. You are just downright malicious.

    What do you not understand about just three titles in 20 years before 1966 and a 14th place and two 5th places in the years before that? I already explicitly mentioned this. Not only the relegation zone thing.
     
  10. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #2435 PuckVanHeel, Jun 24, 2024
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2024
    No, you are one big lie. It was 2nd, and then a UEFA downgrade followed (you continue to ignore this - it shows he is the real underdog footballer).

    https://kassiesa.net/uefa/data/method1/crank1973.html

    In 1973 the results for 1967 have fallen away. Not hard to understand. In an alternative method the league is already top 2 in 1972, with the 1966 results fallen away. It takes time to build this up.

    What do you not understand about the 200-400th best players being ranked 5th or 6th? You are downright evil. Your very first source was some 'historians' list where it is ranked 25th-30th best league in 1971, with Uruguay placed higher. Just shows your agenda. It is nowadays not nearly the 25th best league, with now also USA etc. having entered the chat.

    Nowhere did I say it was the best league in the world, nowhere.

    ClubElo is the best source, but still flawed for earlier years. You continue to ignore the national team Elo, and yes that is because of Cruijff.

    https://es.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clasificación_Elo_del_fútbol_mundial
    (this is from the mid-60s onward - 1970 means also 1960s results count, as the explainer says; again, most players stayed in the Benelux then)
     
  11. Ftblabsolute

    Ftblabsolute Member

    France
    Mar 17, 2024
    Again exactly that's how it works, that means that Dutch league achieving its peak in points in 1978 means all the results are since 1973/74, when Cruyff left. Eredivisie was at its peak in the 1970s when Cruyff didn't play in it. But either way you can check the ranking every year (https://kassiesa.net/uefa/data/method1/ccoef1966.html), the number of points Dutch accumulated and how it ranked on each season individually in terms of average points each team won:
    1966 - 25th
    1967 - 12th
    1968 - 17th
    1969 - 9th
    1970 - 2nd
    1971 - 3rd
    1972 - 4th
    1973 - 3rd
    Cruyff leaves
    1974 - 4th
    1975 - 2nd
    1976 - 4th
    Pre-1969 was fluke league, where Cruyff peaked statistically, andd 1970-73 is equal if not worse than after.

    You didn't expose anything, the "lies" are one error, and one omission (STILL waiting for the listof the "20 omissions"), how am I malicious when you're the one who ignores half of what I say? You ain't fooling nobody duh, you stayed on the forum the whole day you surely have the time to continue discussing.
     
  12. Ftblabsolute

    Ftblabsolute Member

    France
    Mar 17, 2024
    Yes that's what I said are you blind? How is this a lie when I literally said it was 2nd LMAO? The method of calculation if I understand well only changed in 1999 : https://kassiesa.net/uefa/data/method1/crank1998.html (from method1 to method2). Exactly and when all the results of Cruyff era fell, Dutch league was still 2nd and were at the peak in terms of points. How is this hard to understand? Insulting me of being evil won't get you anywhere, it's just embarrassing how you seem to be really a grown man, and call someone evil, like I'm not even joking you're a pathetic human being for doing that. Again, I quoted it, the first source I used was the UEFA ranking : "Since you're using the UEFA coefficients as an argument, here is Netherlands' ranking in them in the seasons Cruyff played (during his first stint as this was the period in which he performed the best statistically speaking)
    https://kassiesa.net/uefa/data/method1/crank1970.html
    1965 - 13th
    1966 - 12th (Cruijff's absolute peak in terms of end product)
    1967 - 12th (Cruijff's absolute peak in terms of end product)
    1968 - 17th
    1969 - 14th
    1970 - 12th
    1971 - 6th
    1972 - 4th
    1973 - 2nd"
    Like literally that's just a lie. It's not even the 2nd source I used, in the same post I mentioned clubelo.com :
    "And when checking the elo rankings of the Netherlands in 1963 (no archive for years after sadly clubelo.com stopped showing rankings of years before), Netherlands was the 20th best league in Europe out of 26 by average of the elo of the teams (https://archive.ph/qtlyL)."
    I also used national team's rankings, using your own logic, guess what? You ignored it :
    "Netherlands' ranking on eloratings.net is as follow:
    1965 - 38th
    1966 - 33rd
    1967 - 32nd
    1968 - 31st
    1969 - 31st
    1970 - 26th (it seems your ranking is heavily wrong? https://www.eloratings.net/1970)
    1971 - 24th
    1972 - 18th
    1973 - 16th
    By your own logic, being that the level of the national team is an indicator for the league's level, the Dutch league was really mediocre. And again, by your own logic."
    Funny to see how you also blatantly posted a fake thing.
    I used a 4th argument for the league which you ignored too :
    "Here's Netherlands ranking in terms of average elo since 1964 (1st Jan each year)
    1964 - 17th
    1965 - 19th
    1966 - 19th
    1967 - 17th
    1968 - 16th
    1969 - 15th
    Not gonna do it for the other years as it takes time but during Cruyff's absolute peak, the Netherlands were outside the top 15 leagues in Europe."
    And when did I say or mean that you said the Netherlands was the best in the world precisely?
     
  13. Ftblabsolute

    Ftblabsolute Member

    France
    Mar 17, 2024
    #2438 Ftblabsolute, Jun 24, 2024
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2024
    Calling someone devil over a football discussion while being a grown man is really pathetic.
     
  14. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #2439 PuckVanHeel, Jun 24, 2024
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2024
    I have flipped through some old World Soccer magazines and even Eric Batty (a known sceptic of Cruijff and the Dutch) wrote in January 1973:

    Title: "Revolution brought progress in Dutch football"

    "In Western Europe this process has only taken place in the Netherlands where, without the intervention of the state and even against the will of the KNVB the transition [...]"
    "The Dutch game has become recognized as a [premier] world power"

    Etcetera. This was just the first issue for 1973 that I picked, the january one.

    Batty does imply there is a dominance of Ajax and Feyenoord, but in the next ten years Twente, PSV, AZ would all reach UEFA Cup finals (the hardest competition, for Maradona fans). PSV and Twente had already reached semi finals at that point.

    Just an enormous disgrace to think it was the 25th-30th league at that point (the very first source mentioned), even a tier below Uruguay. To use that as your first source shows the malign intent. By 1972 the results for the year 1966 had fallen away.

    We are an easy target. That is for sure. 'Historians' convene and Holland is an easy one to push down.

    Evilness in person.
     
  15. Ftblabsolute

    Ftblabsolute Member

    France
    Mar 17, 2024
    #2440 Ftblabsolute, Jun 24, 2024
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2024
    upload_2024-6-24_19-6-40.png
    [​IMG]
    Please link the source and page and stop posting unsourced statements. Again calling me evil. And I'm not dismissing the fact that total football, Rinus Michels and Cruyff were a revolution to football. The only thing I say is that Cruyff faced low level opposition. I'm not a Maradona fan whatsoever and I'd actually think the same (Maradona faced somewhat low level opposition during his years in Argentina), stop making baseless assumptions just because I don't agree with you. Again and again, THE WORLDWIDE RANKING IS NOT THE FIRST ONE I USED AND WASN'T EVEN PART OF MY MAIN POST.
     
  16. Ftblabsolute

    Ftblabsolute Member

    France
    Mar 17, 2024
    And please stop playing a victim card because at the same time you act as a victim and at the same time you call a guy you're having a discussion with "evil" on several occasions. The total football introduced in the Netherlands in the 1970s is widely recognized as one of the most influential system ever implemented, how is Netherlands a punching ball if one of the achievement achieved there is widely known as one of the most influential?
    And again, just because the top 3-4 teams performed, doesn't mean the whole league is good. The unbalance is huge, especially in that era. It's ridiculous how you still say I'm a liar when you already blatantly lied about the elo ranking of the Netherlands in 1970 and that Ajax won the Intertoto Cup in 1967 when they didn't even participate.
     
  17. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Anecdotal evidence I guess, but I noticed this comment, presumably from a Liverpool fan:
    ".
    'I had never seen anything like this' - Johan Cruyff fell in love with Anfield but Liverpool dream was denied - Liverpool Echo
    All Comments
    1. Comment by uko.


      SEPTEMBER 12, 2022


      My dad was at the Anfield game and said Cruyff was the best player ever.
    However, although it seems to me like Cruyff as of 1966/67 can go a bit under the radar, and looking on DBS Calcio his Eredivisie media ratings were indeed 'peak' level in 66/67 and 67/68 (seasons in which he won one Dutch Player of the Year award and came 2nd in another, and then won at least one if not both - Puck might know that re: 67/68?), the general narrative (understandably/reasonably on balance probably, and he alluded to developing his game understanding etc himself I know) is that his true peak was later on playing in more of a false 9 (in effect akin to AM somewhat) role @Ftblabsolute (maybe you know, it's just that it's not clear from your posts). It's hard to know whether that guys Dad saying Cruyff was the best player ever was heavily influenced by that Liverpool-Ajax game or not I suppose too (he'd have been able to see him quite a bit afterwards I assume, including obviously in the 1974 World Cup). It's impossible to know how familar he was with Di Stefano too of course. Apart from 'ELO rating time lag' to put it that way maybe the other thing to consider is that in general as the 60s went on formations and team approaches were changing a bit more towards an increased emphasis on defence and an increased number of outright defensive players in the teams so the goals per game rates were generally higher in football in late 50s going into the 60s than later in the 60s.

    It's funny maybe to see a 4-3-3 system linked to a defensive approach, considering how it'd be thought of now (obviously the approach and team balance/emphasis is not just based on the basic systems though), like on this page
    Liverpool in Europe - 1965/66 European Cup Winners Cup (lfcineurope.com)
    Compared to WM and 4-2-4 it would be a relatively cautious set-up at the time though I suppose (as would 4-4-2).
    Anyway, that Liverpool team that Cruyff-inspired Ajax won 7-3 against on aggregate, had reached a European Final the season before as well as winning the league Manchester United were playing in (the team that went to Benfica and had an emphatic win).

    Maybe I did write my 'challenge' to @Trachta10 about the historians/Di Stefano/Cruyff comment in a not ideal way I'm thinking now though (maybe it'd be better if I didn't write it all, although on the other hand maybe with such a big statement like that, that reads like kind of an appeal to trust the authority of 'true historians' , intentionally or not, it's better for someone to query it). I guess I can understand that reading several highly positive match reports and/or general assessments about prime Di Stefano could lead to a comment like that, even if I still feel like it's hasty and might have been better written something along the lines of "honestly the things I read about Di Stefano are very compelling, and I tend to think it could be very realistic for him to be considered a greater player than Cruyff overall" (although if I entered to see an already tense exchange, comments about being partial etc, and then that comment at the end of a post I can't be sure I'd not still react a little similar maybe lol).
     
  18. Wiliam Felipe Gracek

    Santos FC
    France
    Feb 3, 2024






    .......... yes Between JOhan Cruyff and Alfredo Di Stefano it really is very very harder to choose anyone of them for me .... My heart stays broken and shared with this comparison ...


    ...... Is very very harder for sure .
     
    PuckVanHeel repped this.
  19. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    If you tried it the 'Football Manager stats' way I guess you'd have Cruyff ahead for dribbling, maybe vision too for example, Di Stefano ahead for finishing (based on average accuracy/efficiency rather than best shots maybe though?) and perhaps stamina too for example?

    Another way would be to try and gauge how good each of their seasons was and see who might have had the most great ones I guess (and/or compare the biggest games and tournaments?)....?
     
  20. Wiliam Felipe Gracek

    Santos FC
    France
    Feb 3, 2024







    Really very very harder to me dear mate !




    Alfredo Di Stefano


    Attack .. 96
    Def .... 75
    Stamina ..... 95-97
    Acceleration ...92
    Sprint Speed .... 86
    Resp . (pos) .... 90-95
    BodyBalance .... 82-84
    Deeper pass and vision ..... 92-94
    Plays one-twos ....... 95-96
    Long range Pass ........ 86-88
    Crossing ...... 82-90
    first touch .. 92-93
    Shot power ......... 84-86
    Shot accuracy .......... 94-95
    Shot Technique .......... 90-92
    Teamwork ............ 99
    Mentality .......... 92-95
    Technique ....... 95-96
    Dribbling . ..... 94-95
    Dribbling in Speed ..... 86-92
    Anticipation ....... 93-95
    Bravery ......86- 88
    free Kick .... 85-88
    swerve ...... 84-86
    Jumping Reach .... 79- 82
    Heading Accuracy .... 86-88
    Ball Control Skills ..... 90-92
     
    PuckVanHeel and PDG1978 repped this.
  21. Wiliam Felipe Gracek

    Santos FC
    France
    Feb 3, 2024













    .......Johan Cruyff


    Attack .. 92-94
    Def .... 75
    Stamina ..... 86-90
    Acceleration ...94
    Sprint Speed .... 89-90
    Resp . (pos) .... 88-90
    BodyBalance .... 82-84
    Deeper pass and vision ..... -94-96
    Plays one-twos ....... 86-90
    Long range Pass ........ 94-95
    Crossing ...... 94-97
    first touch .. 91-92
    Shot power ......... 80-82
    Shot accuracy .......... 90-91
    Shot Technique .......... 92-94
    Teamwork ............ 99
    Mentality .......... 86-88
    Technique ....... 96-97
    Dribbling . ..... 92-94
    Dribbling in Speed ..... 96-97
    Anticipation ....... 88-89
    Bravery ...... 79-81
    free Kick .... 84-86
    swerve ...... 92-93
    Jumping Reach .... 82-84
    Heading Accuracy .... 86-88
    Ball Control Skills ..... 90-92
     
    PuckVanHeel and PDG1978 repped this.
  22. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    That Football Manager exercise or attempt Wiliam posted has Cruijff ahead of ADS (and Franz ahead of Johan to be fair, although Franz himself didn't see it like this as we know). Not saying it is the ultimate gospel but is intriguing. Do feel though eleven Gerrards, Ramos for example would lack the discipline and focus to truly beat eleven Beckenbauers or eleven Alfredos.

    https://www.sportbible.com/football...is-the-most-complete-footballer-ever-20190819

    Either way, the idea it was the 25th league in 1972 (literally the first posted 'source') is a complete travesty - it is not like that today, even. The very first World Soccer issue I picked, from January 1973, had it noted like I wrote down ("has become recognized as a world power in football"). By a known sceptic. In 1972 the results of the year 1966 had fallen away etc. Same for the international football Elo, the starting date 1970 still leans (also) on results in 1965. Which the explainer also says (needless to say, the Elo for the time Johan was alive looks better, with e.g. a high semi finals number among European nations etc.).
     
    Wiliam Felipe Gracek repped this.
  23. Wiliam Felipe Gracek

    Santos FC
    France
    Feb 3, 2024



    ................. yes is very very harder to me to choose between Don Di Stefano and Cruyff ... I get emotional with these players ... for sure ... they are my idols too... !
     
    PuckVanHeel repped this.
  24. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Yeah, I agree with you here but I am positive Cruijff was the more influential/consequential of the two. As I said, various different iterations of GoalImpact had Johan #1 all-time. For sure I find your attempts interesting, even if I'm sometimes not sure of the count or accumulation, but if I'd do that myself I think others might feel the same way, so thumbs up for you I think.

    (I'd have Messi and Pele one tier ahead, when forced to make a choice - not saying it is a 100% certainty and yes, something like a Football Manager exercise, when done well, is a good counterpoint I think. Because football is also random and luck, you play with 10 others, there is a venue, there is a referee. Good arguments to look at the total package of the attributes rather than only slick skills and trophies).
     
    Wiliam Felipe Gracek repped this.
  25. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    The All-Time Championship Manager (precursor to the current Football Manager) dataset I edited myself (shortly before the time I joined Big Soccer) also had Cruyff a little ahead of Di Stefano.....but I admit that's partly because I did things in reverse (deciding the overall rating I was aiming for for each player and allocating attribute ratings in line with that) lol!

    I tend to think 11 of Gerrard or Ramos would lack the overall ability vs 11 of Beckenbauer or ADS too (maybe on a certain day 11 Gerrards vs 11 Beckenbauers would be interesting though, especially if the goalkeeper Gerrard was having a great game and the goalkeeper Beckenbauer was having a bit of a shocker lol!).
     

Share This Page