Goal contribution of the best players

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by Trachta10, Nov 4, 2020.

  1. Doc_Exec

    Doc_Exec Member

    Jul 7, 2004
    Nah, I am not pent up on this particular final. I did not realize you were listing contributions in major victories. That's fair enough. Regarding your statement
    1959 Copa America was played and won without a final. The World Cup too at times.
     
    carlito86 repped this.
  2. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #1652 carlito86, Dec 27, 2022
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2022
    My limited football knowledge doesn’t extend that far
    even if I was vaguely of aware of Peles 10 goal performance in one Copa America(59)I didn’t recall that specific detail

    But I didn’t mention Pele or guys from the 50s or wartime/pre war era


    Van basten/cristiano/Romario/Neymar didn’t play in knockout competitions without a final


    Besides this
    If a player scores 15 goals in 15 la liga matches and his team only score 15 goals in those matches

    But then gets injured for the remaining 23 fixtures and his team end up winning the league

    Are we going to say his goal contribution was 100% lol
    That’s foolish

    The World Cup is played over 7 matches
    The current champions league played over 13 matches
    La Liga over 38,bundesliga over 34 etc ...

    All the goals scored in all those matches contributed towards the final outcome whether player x, y or z participated in them or not
     
    Isaías Silva Serafim repped this.
  3. Doc_Exec

    Doc_Exec Member

    Jul 7, 2004
    I understood your approach. Thanks for making important objective contributions throughout.
     
  4. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Hmm, Carlito, we have been agreeing on a few things recently (even things I didn't mention to you - I understood where you were coming from when talking about Maradona's physical decline, and your logic behind showing his 84/85 highlights and saying if he played at this level for 10 years you'd see the comparison to Messi differently for example), but these recent posts seem deliberately concocted towards a conclusion in favour of your favourite player (admittedly not my favourite player as you know lol, but I think I'm making a fair point here) - maybe you are making it kind of factual in terms of looking at the trophies won, but it's getting away from the concept of goal contributions while a player is an active part of the team (eg Van Basten had a much higher contribution % before he was injured in 92/93, and if you're using 81/82 it's a bit pointless in terms of evaluating performance even if yeah they won it largely without him but the only difference vs Sporting Lisbon 01/02 as compared to 02/03 is he played one game and was available in theory, and actually although Ajax had a slightly lower goals scored count when he played more in 82/83, Sporting Lisbon didn't come close to winning the league in 02/03 and had won it in 01/02 - just as Manchester United won their's in 02/03 and not in 03/04)
    2001–02 Sporting CP season - Wikipedia
    2002–03 Sporting CP season - Wikipedia

    Plus Trachta's analysis has been based on narrow (Opta) assists, and he's been looking at non-penalty goals too (I know Van Basten did score quite a few penalties in Serie A too though for example).

    I think the methods and standards should be the same for everybody, favourite player or not, but then afterwards of course points can be brought up about wider assists still counting for something, or a version of Trachta's table that factors in penalty goals the same as other goals still being worth considering or studying too (like maybe once Trachta posts the Michael Laudrup Spanish club goal contribution % results with his methods, I'll accept them but still perhaps bring up that the pre-assist numbers are significant for example I guess lol - maybe it's slightly different in that I don't know whether if I have to choose one favourite player I do choose him, or Dejan Savicevic, or Lars Bohinen or Kingsley Black who both played for Nottingham Forest! - it might depend how I'm thinking about that question on a particular day, and in what context the question is being asked even, while I guess your choice is more certain).
     
  5. Trachta10

    Trachta10 Member+

    Apr 25, 2016
    Club:
    CA Boca Juniors
    Career Stats

    (goals, assists, free kicks, headers, penalties)

    Lionel Messi
    Kylian Mbappé
    Erling Haaland
    Neymar
    Luis Suárez
    Cristiano Ronaldo

    [​IMG]

    *G+A-PK: It's non-penalty goals+assists per90 minutes

    *Goal involvement: It's the % of participation in the team's goals (not counting penalties)

    *The goal involvement adjust is kind of a "Rating" that I do, where I give more value to assists, and it also benefits players who played for stronger teams and a huge amount of games.
     
  6. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member+

    Jun 1, 2018
    #1656 Tropeiro, Dec 29, 2022
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2022
    Goal Involvements % of a player often increases when the team scores more (as is the case of Messi and many other players), and a team who scores more is a stronger team (derr), so stronger teams are already a benefit for those players... and then you add another benefit for already having the first benefit (playing for a stronger team). Beautiful!
     
  7. anamnesis del fútbol

    Apr 9, 2021
    Here I leave the Pelé spreadsheet with updated data

     
  8. Trachta10

    Trachta10 Member+

    Apr 25, 2016
    Club:
    CA Boca Juniors
    This is a very rough stat of course. But actually when I mean stronger team that doesn't necessarily means a high scoring team. There can be low scoring teams in the 80s-90s that are actually very strong and have a lot of great players, or you can have a really high scoring team in the 40s that is not actually strong. I am referring more to teams that have great players, and that makes it more difficult to maintain a high %..
    There is no objective way to do this correctly because the data is very limited, but what I do is to take into account the goal difference in %, (goals for)/(goals for+goals against)
    So in general my logic is that teams with better goal difference in % are "stronger teams".
    In general the list of best players looks better after this adjust,
    But I understand if nobody buys it.
     
  9. anamnesis del fútbol

    Apr 9, 2021
    FIFA does not consider that match official, so I am not counting it. Ogol also has 91 matches in its database. Some count it as official, others do not. It depends on the criteria.

     
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  10. SaidB94

    SaidB94 New Member

    Dec 22, 2022
    In the spreadsheet, there are many Pelé matches where the opponents have the name "Botafogo" when I don't know if it refers to Botafogo SP or Botafogo RP, the same with "Comercial" with "Comercial SP", "Comercial RP" and "Commercial MS". Something similar also happens with "Toronto" and "Toronto Metros", "Peñarol" and "Peñarol-URU", "Juventus" and "Juventus SP", and "Ferroviário" and "Ferroviário-PR", but it is not that serious. Those are the only errors that I saw for now, I appreciate your incredible work.
     
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  11. FadilVokrri

    FadilVokrri New Member

    Real Madrid
    Netherlands
    May 27, 2022
    It actually would be interesting to look at the contributions for example in the case of Pele and Puskas for unofficial matches at top level as well. In the case of Pele for example, it is known that a lot of his unofficial matches were more competitive and against better teams than in most of his official matches (especially in the Campeonato Paulista). So including contributions in competitive unofficial matches would give a more complete, unbiased oversight of their career statistics I believe.

    Here is an example of the results of the research conducted by RSSSF: upload_2022-12-31_12-25-27.png

    Gregroriak provided very valuable information on the matches of Pele's Santos against European clubs in this thread Pele`s Santos vs. European Clubs - Statistical Overview | BigSoccer Forum.
     
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  12. Trachta10

    Trachta10 Member+

    Apr 25, 2016
    Club:
    CA Boca Juniors
    Maybe I can answer because I was the one who made the list
    Yeah I see sometimes it's not that clear, I will try to clarify the names in my next update.
     
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  13. Trachta10

    Trachta10 Member+

    Apr 25, 2016
    Club:
    CA Boca Juniors
    It would be interesting. But I'm sure it will be very difficult to find detailed information on most of these games.

    A time ago I found this table of the top goalscorers in history, I'm sure many of these games had great importance but how can you establish an objective criterion to decide which game is important and which is not?
    [​IMG]

    I would like to know what is the criteria used to count "top league teams", should games against selections/combinations be counted? I think the criteria can be very ambiguous.
    and should we also count friendly games to modern players?
     
  14. SaidB94

    SaidB94 New Member

    Dec 22, 2022
    Sorry man, I'm not very good at english, I thought that the word "your" was singular and plural at the same time. I actually was referring to you, Anamnesis and the rest of helpers of this difficult proyect. I know that...welp...at least 90% of the spreadsheet information was found by you. Still, thank you for your amazing work and I hope I helped to correct some things.
     
  15. Trachta10

    Trachta10 Member+

    Apr 25, 2016
    Club:
    CA Boca Juniors
    Yeah I mean I wrote the names of the clubs in the excel, so that is my error. Because I took the list of games from different sources, and sometimes the names are not written exaclty the same and it's confusing, and even more when different clubs are named the same. I was saying that it was my fault not from Anamnesis.
     
  16. FadilVokrri

    FadilVokrri New Member

    Real Madrid
    Netherlands
    May 27, 2022
    Well, when it comes down to finding detailed information on a match, you're one of the most respected in the community. So if you say it's harder for these kind of games I take that at face value.

    Talking about your work, I noted from your excel sheet too that the Campeonato Paulista would typically start in the end of July at the end of August and would end in December, that's 5 months a year! The first 7 months he would play 10 to 15 official games with Santos. So I think there is a clear bias when accounting only for official games.

    For the criteria, I think wat RSSSF did is looking at games against teams who are teams in top-leagues. But I agree, that it is hard to set a certain standard. In fact, the more I think about it the harder it gets. In the case of Pelé, we could just look at the teams that were playing at the top-tier leagues.

    And looking at only really competitive games, which is the most interesting part, it would be even more complicated. I had an idea but obviously it is just a preliminary thought, complicated and far for from perfect.

    I was thinking something like only taking into account games against European teams and South American teams and maybe add Mexican teams to that (let's say top 3 in the league).

    For the Brazilian teams this is quite a task, because of their division into state league, meaning over a hundred teams could be considered a top-league team. It could be only the friendlies against the top teams, meaning Botafogo, Flamengo, Vasco da Gama, Sao Paulo etcetera. Or maybe a more lenient way would be a criteria like either the team should be active in the Taca Brasil in that year or the year after, and those teams that have at least one or two internationals, considering that some state leagues were way more competitive such as the Campeonato Carioca and the Campeonato Paulista. For the other SA teams, maybe just the top three from every top-league.

    For the European teams, it could be something like only considering the top three of the leagues whose qualified for the first round of Europacup, and then considering only the top three and maybe top 5 of the most competitive competitions such as the Primera Division, Premier League, Serie A and the Bundesliga. And obviously the top teams of the Soviet Union.

    But since the second option seems to be very complicated, the first option would be great too, if possible obviously.
     
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  17. Trachta10

    Trachta10 Member+

    Apr 25, 2016
    Club:
    CA Boca Juniors
    I could try to do it
    Here is a list of all his games
    https://pele.m-qp-m.us/english/pele_statistics.shtml

    Do you think you can create a list with the games that are more relevant? maybe in this same excel you can put a color in each game that is important.
     
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  18. Isaías Silva Serafim

    Real Madrid
    Brazil
    Dec 2, 2021
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    @Trachta10 do you have the number of goals with Pelé's weak foot?
     
  19. FadilVokrri

    FadilVokrri New Member

    Real Madrid
    Netherlands
    May 27, 2022
    Great list, thank you! Yes sure, I would be happy to work on that. I am too busy right now, but in about two to three weeks I will have enough time to work on it.
     
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  20. anamnesis del fútbol

    Apr 9, 2021
    Trachta10 repped this.
  21. Trachta10

    Trachta10 Member+

    Apr 25, 2016
    Club:
    CA Boca Juniors
    No bro, that's impossible to know, maybe someone can make an estimation with videos
     
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  22. Danko

    Danko Member+

    Barcelona
    Serbia
    Mar 15, 2018
    Do you have spreadsheets for any other legendary players except Pele? Like Maradona, Cruyff, Puskas...
     
  23. Jeffersonfv99

    Jeffersonfv99 Member

    Sport recife
    Brazil
    Jul 10, 2021
    Brasil
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    12 Headed Goals For the Brazilian National Team
     
  24. Trachta10

    Trachta10 Member+

    Apr 25, 2016
    Club:
    CA Boca Juniors
    anamnesis del fútbol repped this.

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