Goal contribution of the best players

Good question. I'll try to check that.

 

I would wager that Herbin may be close if we had data on him. Played 15 years in a high-scoring Saint-Étienne team. If I extrapolate some of the data I have on Giresse, he comes pretty close as well. Rothen is also confirmed 90+ assists using strict criteria.

 

Not to dismiss your point re: Copa America Carlito (though both the Ballon d'Or and World Soccer vote were Euro-based in terms of voters, so that's something to consider - at least in Batistuta's case his Fiorentina games would be being assessed though and I guess some voters would be somewhat aware of his form and especially goal numbers in the Copa America; since Francescoli had moved back to Argentina then his club form would be less in focus for Europeans probably though, and yeah the Copa America might not weigh heavily or be widely watched by the voters perhaps even too). I would say though re: Yeboah don't forget his Leeds form (with multiple Goal of the Season contenders in the Premier League in 1995) and the fact it was a calendar year award (I guess he did score a similar amount of goals in Germany/England combined in 94/95 as he did over the 1995 calendar year though, without checking exactly).

I'm not aware of someone with over 100 Ligue 1 assists from what is known, but it's limited to what @wm442433 put on his thread, plus the PSG data (and I think Susic is credited with 103 overall for PSG but not just in Ligue 1 of course). Some of the early seasons of Giresse, Platini are not detailed though for example, not to mention Raymond Kopa who was playing and presumably assisting a lot in France before and after his Real Madrid time. Maybe some other players come into it even, but I suppose the minimum numbers could be worked out for certain players with high tallies in some seasons as per what wm442433 posted.

I suppose Mbappe is a better player than Henry at the same age (not that that means he will improve by the same amount or has the same 'ceiling' of talent or however it can be put), but I'd suggest not better than Platini (although overall he had a better World Cup 2018 than Platini had World Cup 1978). But goal contribution doesn't necessarily decide that of course (especially when players have different positions/roles on the pitch), and I know babaorum wasn't saying it anyway, just answering about the stats (albeit the pure stats are probably even harder to use for comparisons between eras than the goal contribution numbers are, even though as we talked about the goal contribution numbers can also be skewed by numbers of great players/scorers played with in the same team and things like that).

 

Maybe I was a bit hasty re: Henry there - he was 23 in August 2000, so it's not a given he was less of a player than Mbappe by then, or at that point, maybe (and his Euro 2000 might be somewhat comparable to Mbappe's WC2018 even). What I'd say though is that surely Mbappe (statistically and otherwise) had been better over the period up to 23 years old overall. He probably is better compared to Henry of August 2000 too, but I was just adjusting my comment and adding the bit about Euro 2000.

I think young-ish Henry (at Arsenal and in Euro 2000) and Mbappe are indeed quite similar in attributes though, and even in downside (chance conversion overall?, or at least in some circumstances).

 

Were Copa America matches accessible to European audiences in 1995

I believe its plausible if on the other side of the ocean posters like Celito and tropeiro were watching Italian Serie A matches on Brazilian TV station Rai in the mid 1990s

Or are you saying there wasnt even an appetite to watch South American football during the relevant time period?

Edit:
Its hard to imagine European voters were so blissfully unaware

I mean how did they know 10+ years previous to this that Maradona was one of the better footballers in the world going into WC82 when he played his football in a obscure Argentine division and didnt even partake in the 1978 world cup nor did he shine in the Copa America.

 

I think there might have been some coverage, for example in the UK, but not necessarily 'prime viewing' coverage like the Euros and World Cups which would be live on the main channels.

 

Overall i think its worth looking into especially for the retrospective ballon dor thread


If performances in the Copa America didn't historically hold any real significance when it came to deciding the ballon dor winner then why should it now?

Even players like Robinho and Luis Suarez barely scraped the top BD 10 when they were MVP of the tournament

Luis Suarez came 6th in 2011 but had a similar percentage of the votes as the 10th placed player

 

I think one thing I didn't mention before is that in 1995 it was still basically the European Player of the Year award (aka the Ballon d'Or) - it's just that it was now open to non-European players playing for European clubs (which Francescoli wasn't actually of course, although he didn't get voted into the top 10 for FIFA World Player either, like Batistuta didn't either actually and that could give some weight to what you're saying although I'd certainly feel he had better calendar years with Fiorentina than 1995 which is maybe why he did place in the top 10 in the subsequent years, which he didn't in 1991 either although he did get the South American Player of the Year award that time).

 

I'm too young to remember directly, but although I can't find it now I have seen before on Youtube I think a clip of Brian Moore introducing some highlights of Maradona playing in Argentina and calling him a "little marvel", circa maybe 1979 or 1980 (or 1981 at Boca - I forget what it was now). So I think some footage like that would be broadcast on football shows at times. He did play against both Scotland and England in that period of course though, and for Argentina vs a FIFA World XI for example. To a large extent it could be word of mouth too though I suppose ("the Argentinians say" this kid is as good as Pele etc, or the best Argentinian player ever....). in terms of what he was doing in the Argentinian league.

 

If true that would be terrible journalism( at least by 21st century standards)

I guess we take for granted the privileges of living during the internet age

 

I remember that there was a show called Transworld Sport that showed football highlights from around the world, during the 90s, and apparently already in 1986 at least (I didn't see it that early myself, although I saw some of the World Cup matches/highlights on regular TV of course):
Our History is Our Identity | Look At These Scenes
Hero 86 - The Best Football Film You've Never Seen - Scotts Blog (scottsmenswear.com)

Italian Football was the best covered in England probably in general, certainly in the 90s with Channel 4's Football Italia (with live games, and a Saturday round-up show) and before that (before Sky got the PL), Martin Tyler commentating on it:
A Funny Old Game on Twitter: "#OnThisDay in 1991 Gianluca Vialli sealed Sampdoria’s first ever Serie A title. Slightly odd hearing Martin Tyler and Andy Gray commentating on Italian football in the days before Sky’s “Whole New Ball Game”... https://t.co/2Kifcx0wEt" / Twitter

 

@Trachta10 do you have a spreadsheet with the number of penalty goals scored by Xavi and Beckenbauer? if yes, could you send it to me?

 

Michel Platini is highly underrated. He was important for all the teams where he played. I think his weak point is that he had a short career.

His contribution in finals is impressive and he did not lose any finals.

 

He gets into my top 10 all time easily. More objectively in the top 6 (behind Messi, Pele, Cruyff, Maradona and Zico). I was looking for your data in finals, you helped me a lot.

 

Thanks mate. I will do an update on the players who contribute the most in finals. There are some errors to correct. I will also see if I can find data on Gerd Müller and Eusébio

 

Actually, I tend to think the same about him (but I think at the end of last century he wasn't especially under-rated by popular opinion like he perhaps is now - see the France Football Player of the Century voting, World Soccer best players of the century voting, IFFHS voting and votes of magazines around the world shown on Puck van Heel's 'Placar' thread), but I feel like I should point out that he did have a few more finals, and therefore did lose in some of them (but scored twice in the 1982 French Cup Final as shown below, carrying a bit of an injury that he took into World Cup 1982 I think I'm right in saying also)
1982 Coupe de France Final - Wikipedia
He also played in 1981, when St Etienne lost to Bastia, and he played in the 1983 European Cup Final, won by Hamburg, too (but this means that he helped his teams to more finals than you had realised, so it's not necessarily a negative).

 

If possible, try to find for Romário and Beckenbauer.

 

I think that in France and around the world, the majority would choose Zidane over Platini. However, I think Platini was a better player. I prefer an AM who plays the role of playmaker and is also a great finisher like Platini was.

I was convinced that there were no more finals. Big mistake of mine. Thank you for the correction.

 

To be French, it is true that in the popular soccer culture, it is often said that Zidane is above Platini, in the simple fact that he made us win a World Cup but also brought us to a final in 2006 and just for that Zidane exceeds Platini for the French, but footballistically my father always told me that Platini was more beautiful to see play than Zidane, and then he won the Euro in 1984 but also made incredible runs in 1982 and 1986 World Cups

 

There is a discussion on Twitter. I'd like to know what you think of these playoff games that Pelé played. Do you consider them final?

By the way, no Brazilian newspaper mentions these matches as finals.

https://pt.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campeonato_Paulista_de_Futebol_de_1959

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1959_Campeonato_Paulista

 

@anamnesis del fútbol Finished your Platini Finals worksheet? Could you send me?