There is no one of international standing who has preceded you in saying Cruyff 74 was at or near the level of maradona in WC 86 Football forums and dark corners of the web aside of course Maradona dribbled 34 times in the WC KO stage alone How many times Cruyff in the 1974 edition(7 matches) More official WC goals,more artistry,and his peak moments were demonstrably more iconic And he lifted the damn trophy Was a champion The Castrol index should be used as a corroborating source and it's seriously flawed anyways It's time to go back to the drawing board when you see R9 2002 ranked as the best world cup performance ever Arguably(at best)the 5th best WC tournament by a Brazilian player Pele 58,70 Garrincha 62 Jairzinho 70 Are defintely superior performances We could talk about some others like Zico 82,Romario 94,Gerson 70,rivaldo 02 who were not much worse if at all Forget about including other nations Maradona 86 experienced a higher peak as Cruyff 74 Period Higher peaks As a international player and as a league player European cup peaks go to johan Cruyff but that's it this is your underlying objection so let's not pretend as if There is any other reason as to why you responded to a post that wasn't even addressed to you It troubles you to No end that a south American,cheating,"Latin lying",habitual drug user with questionable(to put it lightly)lifestyle choices could be more loved and adored than any Dutch personality in human history(likely to remain that way aswell) Sorry but that's just how it is even if you don't like it For the rest and I don't hold back my words You are (football aside) a bigoted imperialist A sovereign nation cannot be an aggressor against an occupying force The Falklands is not freaking London or Manchester They are geographically MILES apart The right to self determination lol What the hell are you talking about dude This is not Russia/Ukraine/Crimea It's an entirely different continent separated by 7000 miles To be honest I am legitimately wasting my time addressing a known xenophobe please keep me blocked
Maradona dribbled 32 times in the WC KO stage alone with 15 chances created That's 8 dribbles avg with 3.75 chances created per match in the highest standard of competition in the sport As many as Robben with the worst dutch support cast of the last 40 years(not to mention the kamikaze tactics of Louis van gaal) 34 - Arjen Robben completed 34 dribbles this World Cup, as many as Johan Cruijff completed in 1974. Symbolism.— OptaJohan (@OptaJohan) July 13, 2014 In your dreams maybe 6 - Only Polish duo Grzegorz Lato (9) and Andrzej Szarmach (7) were directly involved in more goals at the 1974 World Cup than Dutch maestro Johan Cruyff (6 – 3 goals, 3 assists). Catalysts. #OptaWCYears pic.twitter.com/2HscXDoRpv— OptaJoe (@OptaJoe) May 1, 2020 Eusebio struck 4 times against the mighty Korea(including the solo run leading to the penalty) The goal against the "better defensive England" came from the penalty spot A stat padded goal against a demoralised Brazil (with an injured Pele) Could spend all day nitpicking In short Maradona 86 was a tier above any world cup performance and that is by objective parameters and not mythology Cruyff 74 dribble through the middle leading to a goal? You mean vs West Germany He caught them off guard in minute 1 That was more of a direct run also than slaloming past defenders
No, "not in my dreams" Carlito, since you overlook now the three penalties drawn... That brings the direct involvement to nine goals out of 15. Facts! The part on Eusebio in 1966 is also wrong. I refer back to the Castrol Index and doppelgangers tool. https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/world-cup-comparisons/diego-maradona-1986/ Indeed, I will keep you blocked. And oh, the only reason these guys are more loved is because there are way more compatriots and culturally similar people in the world. It is as simple as that. Then you can shoot down as many journalists as you like with a rifle, beat as many women and children as possible, and what more, but a 'critical mass' is achieved - a lynch mob out there to intimidate those who leave the line. edit: and of course your comprehension is so limited that you don't understand tournaments before 1966 are not covered by Opta/Castrol. Thus Pele or Didi in 1958 falls outside the scope. Proud to be a colonialist bigot for you
Thanks bro, I did a quick count of the penalties, so this is not my final answer Also, I was thinking of something, goals happen more frequently than assists, I meant not all goals have assists, if you look, the player with most goals per game is Haaland with 1 gpg and the player with most assists per game is Cruyff with 0.5 apg, the half. So maybe I can give two points to the assists and one point to the goals. This would benefit a player like Cruyff
Ferenc Puskás only goals, 92.5% of all games Counted 664 games since season 1945 Played 59338 minutes (89.36 mpg), scored 668 goals In 664 games, GF: 2053 (3.092 pg)- GA: 857 (1.291 pg) Per 90 minutes: Goals: 1.013 Goal contribution: 32.77%
Good work with all this mate, and thanks for being open to adjusting things for these new perspectives. Yeah, the table with assists counting for double is interesting too to be fair. I suppose it's no longer strictly a 'goal contribution %' table in the same way (so the final numbers are inflated in real terms as the assists have been doubled in effect although it's more the order that matters I guess in terms of the calculations). But I think it does work as a 'goal contributors' table by being I suppose a combination of a 'assist contributors' table and a 'goals (scored, minus penalties)contributors' table, with approximate/attempted equal value for assisters and scorers in relative terms (given not all goals have assists, and also it's rarer although not unprecedented for individual players to monopolise a team's assists (with a very high percentage of the assists of a team in a season) like various ones do with the goals moreso in certain teams). Maybe it works also in that because pre-assists aren't included, it makes up for that by doubling assist value (although it won't always be the case that those with the most direct assists have the most pre-assists too, and when a player directly assists nearly all of a team's goals then certainly he can't be pre-assisting a high % too of course lol!). Of course, we don't see how many solo goals are scored, compared to tap-ins etc in terms of the goalscoring, but that would be impossible to do and would also veer away from just being a contributors table to something with more value judgements. Interesting to see with that version the close proximity of Van Basten and Muller, and Owen and Shearer, and Zidane and Figo for example. It does boost Cruyff somewhat of course yeah, and some others like Ronaldinho and certainly Riquelme (who played a lot in the Argentine league, but it shows that he was clearly central to his teams goalscoring in the creation of goals, be it with passes or crosses, from open play and set pieces combined, so the end product relied on him quite a lot).
It's a pity we won't have the assist data of Puskas, but surely we won't (and it wouldn't really be verifiable if someone did find any reference to it). Maybe for Real Madrid, or at a stretch the Hungarian national team, it could be possible to get a good estimate from written sources and/or video, but even that would be doubtful. I do think his case will be a good example of a player who has a very high contributions per game ratio (although we don't know assists anyway - I guess they could be higher pre Real Madrid times too although I'm not sure about it of course), but who would rank somewhat lower on a contributions table like this because of the era he played in and the teams he played in (several attacking team-mates, and often high level ones, so a reasonable amount of goals won't have involved his final input with a goal or assist - it's already evident for Hungary where he scores at about a goal per game but has just a 25% goal contribution rate!). A player that could be interesting to add would be Dennis Bergkamp I think. Since Ajax years assist data has been findable and is assumed to be reliable enough for Van Basten, I guess it could be for him too. It's easy enough for England, and for Italy probably Youtube can help again if necessary. I know at Arsenal in particular he did come off the field quite a bit towards the end of games, although it could be his teams didn't score a lot after he left the pitch (which in essence would seem a good sign re: his contribution, but could on the other hand mean his 'on pitch' time contribution rate isn't boosted very much if that's the case, over and above the overall contribution rate in games he played in without considering substitutions).
How many goals (non-PK and PK goals) and assists (wide and strict) Maradona had in Europe (Barcelona, Napoles, Sevilla) and with Argentina? Do you know this correct info? Vegan can't verify (via his detailed review) several of "his assists" in Argentina... but I guess it is more easy to identify it in Europe or playing for Argentina...
Josef Bican only goals, 69.8% of all games I don't know the minutes per game, but it was probably very close to 90 Counted 349 games since season 1931 Played 31410 minutes (90.00 mpg), scored 551 goals In 349 games, GF: 1494 (4.281 pg)- GA: 644 (1.845 pg) Per 90 minutes: Goals: 1.579 Goal contribution: 36.88%
Fernando Peyroteo only goals Counted 345 games since season 1937/38 Played 31080 minutes (90.09 mpg), scored 539 goals In 345 games, GF: 1321 (3.829 pg)- GA: 546 (1.583 pg) Per 90 minutes: Goals: 1.561 Goal contribution: 40.76%
What I can tell you at this moment is just for between 84/85 and 86/87 in Serie A only with Napoli, based on completing an exercise of checking the assists of him, Platini and Rummenigge in those 3 seasons using Youtube clips, on Vegan's Serie A ratings thread:
@PDG1978 Other method I decided to add the goals against in consideration, this benefits players whose teams received less goals Also I was thinking that penalties should be worth something, but how much? The expected goal (xG) of a penalty is 0.75, that means a shot from a penalty has a probability of 75% to be a goal right? So I decided, instead of make goal-PK, it will be goal-PK*0.75 Is like a penaly goal now has a value of 0.25, instead of nothing Assists I was looking how much goals have assists, if I am correct, approximately 67% of all goals scored have assists, so we can make 1/67*100 that is 1.493 So I decided to give a value of 1.5 to the assists So this is the formula (goals+assists*1.5-PK*0.75)/(goals for+goals against-PK*0.75)*100
Ok, thanks - I suppose this version is pretty much based on percentage of goals scored in the matches involved in (by either team) which were scored or assisted by the player concerned then (except with the adjustments it's more like based on points where a penalty is 0.25 and an assist is 1.5, so the G+A% isn't literally the percentage of goal contributions as such). That method does take some account of goals scored by other teams then, but of course not in games not involving the player's team. It does redress the balance a bit, in terms of reducing the effect of playing for a lesser team but being involved in most of the goals they score. If anything, playing for a team that wins by a lot and doesn't concede many will inflate the stats (although the player can have a contribution in achieving that, so there could be some parallel now to the Goal Impact calculations even in that respect, but again not in terms of considering other games that the player didn't play, only the ones where he did). I think maybe it could be worth checking assists for national teams, as for example Baggio must have more than you initially had him down for (maybe someone like Gerd Muller could have too, although maybe I'm not sure of it off the top of my head). Here is an assist by Baggio on his Italy debut (to add to the ones I mentioned before in my first response about it), from 1:46: The Netherlands - Italy 0 / 1 (Friendly: Nov / 16 / 1988) - YouTube
The goal (final act) must worth more than the assist and the assist more than the previous actions in my opinion, specially if we don't have the tools to value each one of these acts. I still didn't counted it, but some certain players are overvalued there (most evident from one country) and some other undervalued. In fact, this is so far from going through any judgment or audit that it falls even into the field of propaganda, fake news... but as people like easy information, it is still an effective "job".
https://docs.ufpr.br/~mmsabino/sstatistics/paises.html I have to tell you, this source is not 100% reliable, especially for older players for example Pelé made 5 PK for the NT, but here are only 2 PK counted https://docs.ufpr.br/~mmsabino/sstatistics/pele.html So penalties are probably underestimated for some players
Dennis Bergkamp Counted 815 games since season 1986/87 Played 60934 minutes (74.77 mpg), scored 302 goals and 160 assists. In 815 games, GF: 1569 (1.925 pg)- GA: 700 (0.859 pg) Per 90 minutes: Goals: 0.446 Assists: 0.236 G+A: 0.682 Goal contribution: 23.17% G+A contribution: 35.45%
Thanks mate for taking the request and making a table for Bergkamp (a preliminary table anyway - I'll explain below). I forgot to give you the source for his National Team assists before to be fair (not deliberately as an illustration of the difficulties, but it just didn't cross my mind). Anyway, here it is with a tally of 26 assists (obviously the goals tally shown does match what you have): I haven't checked thoroughly the Arsenal years, but I guess you have a good source for Premier League (the Premier League website does show tallies though so let me know if you haven't seen it and want a link), so it's just whether his various Champions League assists for example are all included (sometimes the stats bomb type websites don't show assists before a certain date so suggest lower tallies than a player got - even the UEFA website did it I think, maybe having used second hand data retrospectively and missed off early years assists for Champions League). Like vs Lazio in 00/01, or Juventus in 01/02.... I assumed you had a good source for Van Basten's assists at Ajax and might for Bergkamp's too, but though I can't say it's true I do wonder whether that data is incomplete (if it's off the Ajax website I think it could be as in some years the percentage of goals assisted seems low, tallying up all assists, even though as you have stated it should be somewhat lower than the goals tally anyway - I just think it might be still too low at first glance in some seasons though). Depending on the Ajax data, it seems like with his full career, his overall G+A contribution rate is brought down by the beginning and end which could be expected given the age he played to (and for a free scoring, for the era, Arsenal, where as you showed Henry was getting plenty of assists himself as well as his goals including I guess a decent number of unassisted solo goals even). He started his career more as right winger I think, which can be a factor, although of course wingers can get a good number of assists (I guess he wasn't a typical cross provider type winger though, but more a right wing forward). His 'prime' years (in terms of end product and arguably generally) do show a big contribution of course - no surprise that it's 97/98 leading the way, and with 96/97 and 98/99 (to an extent also 95/96 already), and then 01/02 also with high percentages too. Maybe after the turn of the century the wider stats (involving including pre-assists although I know you can't do that for all players anyway so it's a no-go in your 'project') would be a bit better relatively than earlier, as he played a bit more of an outright supporting/playmaking role.
Arjen Robben Counted 703 games since season 2000/01 Played 50238 minutes (71.46 mpg), scored 246 goals and 194 assists. In 703 games, GF: 1600 (2.276 pg)- GA: 598 (0.851 pg) Per 90 minutes: Goals: 0.441 Assists: 0.348 G+A: 0.788 Goal contribution: 19.36% G+A contribution: 34.63%
I didn't say it was 100% realiable, but at least it's an equal source for everyone, different than your source for assists, including spanish wiki (overrating/underrating numbers for some players), opta data, transfermarkt data, barcelona data using rebound assists etc.
I don't see which players are overrated or underrated, I just use the available data, and didn't use any barcelona data